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Joined: Jun 2002
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Originally Posted By: revdocdrew
"From a European perspective, of course, the LC Smith is the preeminent American classic because of its sidelock mechanism"


Someone named Greener thought side-locks to be an anachronism once the cocks went inside in the 1870s...and the most recent reincarnation of the "Elsie" Smith is not a side-lock. I wonder why?

The on-going debate of side-lock versus box-lock is a recent invention. Greener's comment favored his new hammerless box-lock in the context a modernization of the action that was less costly to make. Back when he made his commercial pronouncement ca. late-1870s, the sporting pulp weeklies were largely written by subscribers--sort of like today's Internet websites like this one.

I have mined the old newspapers for info to pass along in my books and articles, more than anyone can imagine, plus I have a complete library of shotguns and shooting books pre-WWI. What I find interesting is that the contemporary print media of the 1870s through, say, 1910, is largely devoid of any discussion of box-lock versus side-lock, save Greener's self-serving single pronouncement that went to the simplified manufacturing procedure rather than any "better mouse-trap" analysis. The pulp weeklies especially were a bubbling cauldron of strong opinions by gun cranks, stated and rebutted endlessly, and I never found anything on the topic worth quoting from when the guns were cutting-edge in current production.

Side-locks today are a matter of taste, fashion, and opinion. Just how the "European perspective" imputes "preeminence" to the L. C. Smith is a matter of opinion. But it is a fact easily verifiable by clicking over to the Roy Eckrose Auction Summary on this very website: I used his 2004 analysis in my new book with a chart at p.337.

There were 104 Parkers of all grades and condition according to Eckrose, which averaged $4,382 (16 Trojans averaged $1,333). The 101 L. C. Smiths of all grades and condition averaged $1,274, which was less than Parker's lowest-grade "knockabout" Trojan.

The Parker price range was $250 to $31,625; the L. C. Smiths ranged from $172 to $18,400. Most telling was that 54% of the Parkers were above $2,000, while only 15% of the L. C. Smiths exceeded what I consider to be the entry level for a better kind of SxS shotgun.

This is not to say that one or another old-time shotgun is best by any objective standard, but I think the prices indicate a consensus that mitigates against claims of "preeminence" viewed through the lens of "European perspective." There's a neat picture in the "Box-locks versus Side-locks" chapter 32 (at p. 259) of my new book with this caption:

"L. C. Smith display where the "true believers" gathered at Madison Square Garden for the 1895 Sporting Goods Show. If contemporary pulp-weekly sportsmen's newspapers and shotgun-related books are any indication, these fellows were not discussing box-locks versus side-locks."

In other words, there is no silver bullet to define one "Best" gun from any one of the prominent makers. Overall there is a pecking order of average prices...and Lake Erie averages four feet deep; don't drown in the averages.

And here's a surprise: EDM just acquired a ca. 1904 Phila. Fox "A" s/n 262; wonder why? Well, mostly to help out a senior citizen, but also it's such a dead ringer for a Parker VH that it will produce some double-takes when I put it on my table at the Vintage Cup this September.


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Originally Posted By: battle
well you forgot the best of the best.........LEFEVER!


And what about Ithaca?

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You don't suppose Mr. Fox actually admired (or even shot/owned) a Parker, do you????

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Originally Posted By: DAM16SXS
You don't suppose Mr. Fox actually admired (or even shot/owned) a Parker, do you????


I suspect that's like wondering if Ford ever tried out GM products and vice versa? As astute businessmen I expect they were intimately familiar with each othrs product.
Jim


The 2nd Amendment IS an unalienable right.
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i think ansley did shoot a parker in competitive shoots. im not sure though i havent read MM's book in almost a year.

eddie

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Originally Posted By: DAM16SXS
You don't suppose Mr. Fox actually admired (or even shot/owned) a Parker, do you????


Ansley Fox shot a Parker at the 1900 GAH while sponsored by Winchester ammo, and putzing around trying to get in the gun business. At some point after 1900 he started shooting a Winchester. "Researcher" can fill in the blanks. EDM EDM


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Originally Posted By: EDM
Originally Posted By: DAM16SXS
You don't suppose Mr. Fox actually admired (or even shot/owned) a Parker, do you????


Ansley Fox shot a Parker at the 1900 GAH while sponsored by Winchester ammo, and putzing around trying to get in the gun business. At some point after 1900 he started shooting a Winchester. "Researcher" can fill in the blanks. EDM EDM


I think the point is being missed here. Casually shooting a competitors product is one thing. Buying examples of the competitors product, tearing it down and analysing it's strengths and weaknesses with your internal staff is something entirely different and I suspect this is what was done.
I know from personal experience this was routine in the automotive industry.
Jim


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My point exactly. Imitation is the highest form of flattery.

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I own a Fox Sterlingworth that was lettered to the Winchester Co. I think that it was used when they were developing the M-21.

tim

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Originally Posted By: italiansxs
Casually shooting a competitors product is one thing. Buying examples of the competitors product, tearing it down and analysing it's strengths and weaknesses with your internal staff is something entirely different and I suspect this is what was done.


Going back to when our favorite SxS's were in current production, there was a tremendous cross-pollination of guns and gun makers on a friendly basis. Old company-to-company correspondence in the hands of collectors shows that business relations were cordial and supportive, even in respect to patent litigation. In the days before the Sherman Act they even agreed on prices. The Interstate Manufacturers and Dealers Association was somewhat of a trust in that it owned and managed organized trapshooting from the early 1890s until it morphed into the current ATA in 1920. The Interstate Assn's BOD consisted of gun makers (like Wilbur Parker Jr.) and ammo company executives.

The thing that surprises me is how blatant the the Phila. Fox mimics the Parker's exterior design. It could not have been a good thing to start-up a new business with expensive tooling that simply copied the familiar and visible identity of a well-established product (unless there was a tremendous price advantage). So it's no surprise that the Phila. Fox had a short life, and Ansley's next gun had its own trademark exterior (see McIntosh's Fox book, p. 76 et seq). As to the interior design features, prudent gun makers would analyze the competition so as to avoid inadvertent patent infringement and, thus, maintain the goodwill of others in the business. Whether Ansley pissed off the Brothers Parker with his knock-off...we'll never know. EDM


EDM
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