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Joined: Jan 2002
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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It is interesting, could it be that in the old days the barrels where not just "choked" the last 2 or 3 inches of barrel. What is the measurement from the chamber down say half way. Like I said I'm no expert in this arena. Just to add some info., I have a German shotgun (circa 1920) marked full choke and you can see 2 steps looking down the 26 inch barrel, one half way and then another about 4 inches from the muzzle. Things weren't always done in the past as they are to-day, Perhaps someone more knowledgeable will chime in and explain the use of 11 / 12 on on 10 gau. --- John Can.
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Boxlock
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Boxlock
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The water table:
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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In 1875 per British rules guns with choke began to be marked with both bore & muzzle dias as 10B 11M & also the words "Not for Ball". In 1887 the nominal chamber began to be marked as 10/C in a diamond with the ga for bore & word "Choke" (if choked). At this same time the intermediate sizes also began to be marked as 12/1 for a bore of .740" up to 751" (11ga). Actual choke dia was no longer marked. Pete; The description I gave was paraphrased from W Greener, "The Gun 1834". Yes these bbls do have a candy stripe like appearence. The bbls as on a Lefever H etc described as "London Teist" to me have an appearence much closer to the old Stub Twist, but I do not think actual stubs were still being used. I highly suspect their makeup was of smaller pieces somewhat on the order of the older Stub bbls. There is though nothing to indicate to me they were "Twisted" in the bar prior to wrapping. The first type is generally referred to as plain twist & often called wire twist from the appearence of having been wound with wire & welded, though this was not the actual mode of construction.
Last edited by 2-piper; 03/11/09 12:11 AM.
Miller/TN I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Most likely answer is that the proof diameter was 11G and the muzzle diameter 12G. [IE: a choke equal to the difference in diameter between 11G and 12.G.] This would be similar to the "Not for ball" 11B 12M, found on British shotguns made between 1875 and 1877.
Roy Hebbes
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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John; You say your gun has 11 on one bbl & 12 on the other. Do they just have the single mark & not the dual marks with one having a B & the other an M following? It must be remembered that until the general acceptance of choke boring even breech loaders were measured by the process which had been developed during muzzle loader days, ie measured from the muzzle. Since your gun bears the stamp "Not for Ball" it would indeed indicate it was choked. While theoretically the not for ball & the dual markings for bore & muzzle came in together, it is quite conceivable some one simply marked it by the "Old Rule" & stamped muzzle dia & then added the Not for Ball realizing it was choked. In the vast majority of cases though it can be assumed if there is only a single size mark per bbl it is to be taken as bore dia, not choke. I do not think I have ever heard of a case where bore size was marked on one bbl & choke size on the other one. There are guns with the dual marking on one bbl & a single mark on the other. The bbl carrying only the single mark will be found to be cylinder, the other choked.
Miller/TN I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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