doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com .410 question please

Seem to recall at some point in time this "Targo" game was promoted as "Mo-Skeet-O". Once had a Mossberg rifle model 42MC which was one of the variations of the basic model this 42TR was based on. I recall Remington making rifles for this "Sport" with the forward portion of the bbl enlarged to about a 5/16" bore & choked, known as the "Routledge (SP?) bore.
In Burrard he gives standard British loads for the .410 as;
3" = 9/16oz
2½" = 3/8oz
2" = 5/16oz
These would have been for the paper case. It is well established that an all brass case of a given length has more internal capacity than a paper one, thus can receive a heavier load. This would of course most often give a load which exceeded the load for which the gun was proofed. Burrard did list loads under the "Low Velocity" principal in which the powder charge was appropriately reduced to not exceed proof parameters in which the 3" load was increased to 11/16oz, the 2½" to ½oz & the 2" to 3/8oz. In a country such as England with proof laws then I believe that a full 2½" load put up in a 2" brass case would only be approved for use in the 2½" chamber.
Of course for the US (us) the FF factor applies ie If it "Fits-Fire" it.

Competition from MO-SKEET-O?



This is what we had at the Boy Scout summer camp I attended.

I had a Remington 510 single shot "shotgun" like the one in the photo when I was a kid. We used it to kill "English sparrows" (which aren't especially English and certainly not sparrows....), bluejays, starlings and house finchs that raided our fruit orchard. Would also work on rats and ground squirrels at close range (Bowie knife close!). I was aware that it was intended to shoot small skeets from ads in "Boys Life", but didn't know much more than that. (Nobody I knew could afford to shoot the full-sized clays, let alone tiny ones). After shooting "songbirds" became less-than-legal, I sold it to a Remington collector (a scrub jay is a SONG bird????). I suspect that the majority of these .22 smoothbores never were fired at a clay--mainly pest control. At any distance the .22 shot won't penetrate iron roofing sheets (but a .410 will...) don't know about the new-fangled aluminium ones.

I went back thru some of my old catalogues, and I don't find UMC offering brass shotgun shells any smaller then 28-gauge up thru the 1923 catalogue. In the 1926 Remington-UMC ammo catalogue they do offer a 2-inch brass .410-bore primed empty. My Winchester paper is pretty sparse thru the time frame, but I don't have anythng from the big W that shows a brass .410-bore shell. That loaded brass .410-bore shell may have been a U.S. Cartridge Co. and Montgomery Ward exclusive. The only brass .410-bore shotgun shell I have in my collection is a U.S. It has a baige over-shot wad stamped 6C.

My 1926 E.K. Tryon catalogue lists paper .410 Gauge (12 M/M) shells from Winchester and Remington-UMC loaded with 5/6 dram equiv. and 3/10 ounce of shot in 2-inch and 3/8 ounce of shot in 2 1/2 inch case. There is a heavy stock U.S. Cartridge Co. page in that catalogue but it only shows their three grades of shotgun shells -- Ajax Heavies (progressive burning powder), Climax (dense smokeless powder), and Defiance (bulk smokeless powder) -- in 12-, 16-, and 20-gauges.

In my 1929 Stoegers, at the bottom right corner of page 53, I find the U.S. 2-inch all brass .410 12 m/m loaded with 4-5-6-7 1/2-9 for $30.50 per 1000. However, just like the older UMC and Remington listings there is no mention of how much shot is in the loads. On page 54 the only Western .410 offered is a 2 1/2 inch Super-X with 3/8 ounce of shot. On page 55 Winchester .410 gauge Shells (Repeater) are listed as 2-inch with 3/10 ounce of shot and 2 1/2 inch with 3/8 ounce of shot.

By the 1932 Stoegers on the U.S. Shotgun Shells page the only .410 12 m/m shells offered are paper in 2-inch Climax and 2 1/2 inch Climax Heavies.

For no particular reason, but that I noticed these downstairs, here is a box of Winchester .44 X.L. Shot from after the introduction of their Staynless priming.



I had an old box of WRA .44-40 Shot shells that were loaded with semi-smokeless powder, but that box completely fell apart and now all I have are 36 of the loaded shells and eight very corroded empties that I fired back in the 1960s. In hindsight I should have at least save the label off that box.

Maybe W did not cataloge 410 brass, but I will guarantee they produced them. I have some brass examples in my stuff, along with (pics of the green+black label box they came in. Not my pics so won't offer for show here.)
the 410 all brass box was like these;

You probably won't see loaded offerings in the brochures either, but they made them.
Also, a shell like the 3" below is probably not listed as a standard offering, along with other factory varieties of either tinned or nickeled brass shells.


I'm off to KC for the weekend along with the buckle for trade.
D

I don't doubt there may have been periods when other companies made brass 12 m/m .410-bore shells. I stated that my Winchester paper was very thin thru this period.

As to 3-inch brass 10-gauge shells, they are offered in all my UMC paper from 1903 thru 1914, as are 2 5/8", 2 3/4", 2 7/8", and 3 1/4". After 1918 they only catalogued 2 5/8" and 2 7/8" brass 10-gauge shells, and by 1926 only 2 5/8".

I know from researching Fox and Parker records that both those companies built guns with features that were not catalogued so I can certainly imagine that the even though an ammo company only catalogued primed empty brass cases, that they would load them up if the customer ordered it.

Wonder how many of these are cataloged?

Back to the original .410-bore thrust of this thread! I just opened my box of goodies from the latest Wards auction and included was a 1925 J. Stevens Arms Co. catalogue No. 56 and in doubles both their No. 330 Stevens Hammerless and the cheaper No. 315 "Riverside Arms Co." Hammerless are offered in .410-gauge.

Also, I more then doubled my collection of various iterations of Western Cartridge Co.'s booklets Super-X The Long Range Load by Capt. Chas. Askins. By the 1924 version they are including the Super-X 2 1/2 inch .410-bore shell.

Thanks Dave. Any insight as to why Fox didn't join the .410 parade? Hunter Arms, Parker, and Ithaca all introduced their guns in 1926.