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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 162
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 162 |
I'm looking for a sound percussion double to hunt with, and realize this generally means twist barrels. I am under the impression that Belgian barrels were carefully proofed, and brazed together rather than soldered, and that brazed joints are less likely to weaken and admit corrosion between the ribs. I am under the impression that British barrels weren't always proofed, and that they were generally always soldered, and that soldered joints are more likely over time to loosen and admit corrosion. I also am under the impression that very few American shotgun "makers" actually made the barrels, but that these generally came from Britain or Belgium. Any thoughts, corrections, advice? I realize that some do not believe in shooting twist barrels under any conditions. I am not of that faith.
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Joined: Jun 2007
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,417 |
Bill: There is nothing dangerous in shooting black powder or it's equivalent in an antique percussion or flintlock double gun as long as the barrels are sound, not badly pitted and have sufficient wall thickness. I have never heard of barrels being brazed to the ribs only soldered. You are correct that most American makers imported the tubes from either England or Belgium. As far as I know all British barrels had to pass proof in order to be sold.
Best Regards, George
To see my guns go to www.mylandco.com Select "SPORTING GUNS " My E-Mail palmettotreasure@aol.com
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Joined: Mar 2002
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2002
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Every English Percussion shotgun that I have seen is proofed,
including my 1820 Vintage Jos Egg.Shoot it if it is sound!
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,598
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,598 |
I'm looking for a sound percussion double to hunt with, and realize this generally means twist barrels. I am under the impression that Belgian barrels were carefully proofed, and brazed together rather than soldered, and that brazed joints are less likely to weaken and admit corrosion between the ribs. I am under the impression that British barrels weren't always proofed, and that they were generally always soldered, and that soldered joints are more likely over time to loosen and admit corrosion. I also am under the impression that very few American shotgun "makers" actually made the barrels, but that these generally came from Britain or Belgium. Any thoughts, corrections, advice? I realize that some do not believe in shooting twist barrels under any conditions. I am not of that faith. Bill, A couple of points. During the period when American makers were making percussion doubles, they usually procured the barrels from England. When looking at export numbers during these years the English clearly surpassed the Belgians in trade with the US. English proof laws required the barrels to pass proof. The Belgians did not begin using brazing as a high production method until the 1890's. This is not to say an individual set of barrels was not brazed. Damascus barrels in sound condition would be no problem for a percussion gun. Pete
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Joined: Jan 2002
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 12 |
UK was the leading light in proof laws and proof houses. There is no difference in original quality between Brit and Belgian barrels, comparing grade to like grade. I'm not aware of any brazed flint or percussion barrels - maybe so, but I don't know about it. Properly tinned barrels are very corrosion resistant. Soldering is a perfectly fine and strong enough way to join barrels. If/when the joint fails, it is reasonably easy to repair. It can be regulated if the barrels don't shoot together. Brazing lends itself more to production line work (oven brazed) than to hand work.
Sound barrels will be the key to a suitable percussion gun. Springs, screws, and cracked wood are the most likely sources of repair needs. Locks can usually be rebuilt relatively easily via micro welding.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 162
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 162 |
Thanks for the edification gentlemen. I would indeed use only conservative black powder loads.
I have also heard that the practice of "ringing the barrels" doesn't really prove anything one way or the other.
Sound like bore condition is everything.
Bill
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Joined: Jan 2002
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 12 |
Ringing the barrels seems to be idicative, but not definitive. Bore damage is a bear to fix if the walls are too thin to hone it out. Bulges and uncreased dents can usually be repaired. Bore condition is the 800# go-rillar.
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 602
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 602 |
Make sure the locks engage half and full cock positively, with no chance of slipping or jarring, and that nothing within the locks is cracked or broken - they can still function with some parts in that condition.
Also make sure the barrel wall thicknesses are good, ribs on solidly, no deep pits etc - just as for a breech loader; many a muzzle loader has been rod-worn paper thin at the muzzles, but can still be surprisingly thick lower down.
Good luck; they're good fun, and once appropriately loaded, give nothing away in performance to any shotgun.
RG
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Joined: Dec 2001
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
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I have never owned a Belgian percussion dbl, but Vernon Starr in his little book on ML shotguns stated that Belgian ones were normally brazed & English ones soft soldered. My I Hollis has held up quite well over the years. It does bear proper Birmingham Proofs. It does seem to be a rather late gun for percussion as it has the proof mark for combined provisional & definitive proof, which wasn't introduced until near the end of the percussion era.
Miller/TN
I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,598
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,598 |
I have never owned a Belgian percussion dbl, but Vernon Starr in his little book on ML shotguns stated that Belgian ones were normally brazed & English ones soft soldered. My I Hollis has held up quite well over the years. It does bear proper Birmingham Proofs. It does seem to be a rather late gun for percussion as it has the proof mark for combined provisional & definitive proof, which wasn't introduced until near the end of the percussion era. Most of the guns that are to be had in this country today were imported from England with Belgium running a close second. Most of the English guns were of good quality but some of the Belgian were pretty poor, but one good point with the Belgians, no one ever saw a pair of Belgian barrels come apart no matter how cheap the gun or how poorly made. I have never seen a pair of barrels bearing the Belgian proof mark that was not brazed together and the devil himself can't get them apart without heating them red hot. Miller, I would never argue with some one's observations. I would point out what many do not know. The Belgians continued to produce muzzle loaders well into the 1930's. These were meant for "the African trade". It seems they pushed out a lot of junk during this period. Now the African trade is confusing terminology. Certainly they were selling guns in the Belgian Congo and indeed through out Africa. They also had a very strong market in South America for decades by this time. Indeed, while discussions seem to focus on how many Belgian guns were sold here, South America was actually the major recipient. Most of the Belgian muzzle loaders in the market, that I have seen are post 1890's. So I would not be surprised that the barrels were brazed. Pete
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