doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com .410 question please

Here's a 410 Timeline from Cartridgecollectors.org


Time Line for .410 Cartridges

1870s Both center fire and pin fire in Europe. Perhaps origin of 12 mm in Germany.
1870s First Wilkes .410 proved by London Proof House
1878 Gevelot catalog listed 12 mm (.410) center fire and pin fire.
June 1882 Kynoch listed .410 ammo in "Shooting Times" and "The Field" advertisements.
1883 Purdey made .410 gun.
1884 Kynoch listed .410 Perfect all brass.
1885 Eley .410 pin fire.
1886 Societe Francais de Munitions catalog described 12 mm shotshell.
Wanting to be different from Britain, in 1810 France used two systems: One similar to the British system but based on a different pound, to determine gauge and a bore system based on the kilogram. The bore system was abandoned in 1868. Some time later, the proof house decided that guns smaller than 10.6 mm (approximately .410") would be tested differently from larger ones. Thus, Pierto Fiocchi deemed that the .410 became the divider between serious guns and play guns and that this was probably the birth of the .410—though officially 12 mm in France. (Contemporary magazine articles continue to present controversies regarding effectiveness of the .410.)
The London Proof House proved a .410 circa 1887.
Several times the European ruling commission on arms and ammunition (CIP) standardized shotshell nominal diameters. In 1914, 12, 14, 16, 20, 24, and 28 gauges. In the 20s and 30s, 14 gauge disappeared and 32 reappeared. Sometime in the 20s, perhaps spearheaded by a German or Swiss wanting a logical progression the CIP used the 36 designation. Later the CIP reverted to using the correct .410 designation. In 1961 CIP made .410 the official designation. In 1969 CIP added 36 in parentheses. For many years, manufacturers in Italy and other countries labeled 2" and 2 ½" .410s 36 gauge and 3" .410s 36 magnum. Thus hundreds of arms and ammunition manufacturers have historic and other reasons such as marketing and sales for using two or all three designations.
1891 Kynoch .410/12 mm for rook rifles = 2" Gastight maroon or green or 12 mm all brass.
1892 Eley brass, green Extra Quality 2" 3/8 oz., and similar pin fire.
1893 Eley solid, drawn brass
1898 Kynoch Perfectly Gastight 2" paper or metallic and Thin Brass.
1899 Eley Thin Brass.
1902 Eley Improved Gastight.
1903 London Proof House proved a cane (walking stick) gun.
1904 First official reference to .410 by Royal Proof House
1908 Kynoch had eliminated brass.
1910 Eley Gastight pin fire and only solid drawn brass
1911 Eley and Kynoch 2 ½"
1914 Eley Fourten 2" and Fourlong 2 ½".
1915 Remington 1 ½".
1916 Winchester 2" Repeater quality, no. 1-12 shot sizes.
1917 Peters 2" no cannelure.
1919 Eley dropped pin fire and brass.
1920 Winchester Repeater 2" and 2 ½" new primed empties.
1921 Peters 2" and 2 ½" with cannelure.
1926 Fiocchi catalog showed "cabibro" .410 dimensions.
1923 Winchester 2 ½" loaded.
1926 Ithaca 2 3/8" chamber.
1927 Winchester Repeater Speed Load and dropped 2" new primed empty.
1927 Midland Gun Company (England) 3" double barrel.
1927-1939 ICI (British) brass.
1931 Ithaca 2 7/8" chamber.
1932 Speed Loads.
1933 Peters 3".
1933 Western Cartridge Company 3" and Winchester Model 42 development of which was changed from 2 ½" to 3" at behest of John M. Olin after purchase of Winchester.
1935 Ithaca 3" chamber.
1936 Winchester number 9s listed for skeet.
1937 Winchester Super Speed 2 ½" and 3".
1939 Winchester rifled slug.
Early 1960s marketing of plastic cases, first roll crimp, then six pie.

Up thru my 1913-14 Remington Arms--Union Metallic Cartridge Co. catalogues the closest thing to a 12mm/.410-bore shot shell I find is ithe .44XL and the .44-40 Shot. I don't have anything for 1915 to 17. In the 1918-19 Remington Arms--Union Metallic Cartridge Co. catalogue this is the listing for little shells --



In the 1923 Remington Arms Co., Inc. catalogue No. 107, this is the listing --



Finaly in a circa 1926 Remington Arms Co., Inc. ammo catalogue, this is the .410-bore listing --



None of these give the amount of shot in the 12mm/.410-bore shells.

In my 1927 Western Cartridge Co. booklet on Super-X shells Capt. Askins discusses the new .410-bore Super-X 2 1/2 inch shell with the 3/8 ounce load being a big improvement over the old 3/10 ounce .410-bore load.

Great stuff gentlemen and thanks! Likely this was the ammo makers responding to the gun makers, but how did 1926 get to be the big debut year??

Could be a .44 XL rather than an actual .410. I've seen some early double hammer guns chambered for that shot cartridge. A friend has a fun one that's marked "Hunter's Pet".

DLH

Interesting that the price of $33.25 per 1000 for 2 1/2 inch .410-bore shells was constand from 1918 to 1926. That would be $8.31 for 10 boxes, or a flat like we get today, and the STS or AA 2 1/2 inch .410-bore shells at Cabelas were $124.99 a flat when I was in there last week.

By my 1934 Stoegers the regular 2 1/2 inch .410-bore shells with 3/8 ounce of shot are still $33.25 per 1000, but they now listed a Super-X 2 1/2 inch .410-bore shell with 1/2 ounce of #9 shot as a Skeet load, for the increased price of $35 per 1000.

I sold a high condition field grade NID .410 with cocking indicators and 28" barrels on this site a couple of years ago.


"Interesting that the price of $33.25 per 1000 for 2 1/2 inch .410-bore shells was constand from 1918 to 1926. That would be $8.31 for 10 boxes, or a flat like we get today, and the STS or AA 2 1/2 inch .410-bore shells at Cabelas were $124.99 a flat when I was in there last week."

According to inflation calculators, that's a bargain! If they sold for that in 1918, they should cost $125.31 now!

This is just a guess, but maybe it had something to do with the new game of Skeet. If one company made a .410 for Skeet, then all the others would be pressed to jump on the band wagon.

I once ordered what was advertised as a Grade 1E .410-bore NID with 28-inch barrels from a big dealer in Cape Girardeau, Missouri. What actually arrived at my dealer in Virginia was a refinished Field Grade with extractors, but it did have 28-inch barrels. I sent it back and had my money back in right at 30 days.

I was offered a 28" NID 410 #1 grade a couple of years ago but the man lived 400 miles away and would not ship it! I let a friend who lived nearby to him buy it for himself.

There were always shotshell cartridges available in the states. The 44XL / 44 shot was available for a long time. Merwin & Hulbert sold all the reloading components for it.






The 44 Game Getter was a Marble marketing idea, a 44-40 with a round ball for their Game-Getter gun.

American companies had been making sxs 44XL for some time, like this h&r.


The 1st American gun chambered for the .410 was the Stevens single shot, as far as I can tell. It was available in their m1915. This was when Wilson was elected and the tariffs came down. Eley was already making the .410 so it became cheap to import the ammunition while American companies tooled up for it.

Ron Gabriel states the 1st American sxs chambered for the .410 was a Parker.

I interviewed the President of the Marble Collectors Association, who resides Gladstone, MI were the Game-Getter was made. Marble test fired every gun before shipment. The accepted range for the 44XL was 25 feet. That is the distance Marble tested it at. So, one of the big advantages to .410 was significant increase in range.

Pete