doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com French 16 ga/Info needed

Looking for info on this gun. Right barrel is marked Poichauvin AR 2. Left barrel is marked A Montargis. On the left barrel flat is stamped Choke Bored Perfectionne and Roncharc Cizfron. The flats also have a crown over the letters PT and the numbers 6.5. Each barrel has,forward of the flats, the number 17.0 and the left barrel has stamped Canon Surette over Double Epreuve with Garantie in between them, all in an oval shape.There are some other words/letters/markings but they are faint. The gun has swivels, straight grip and a splinter FE. Anyone have any ideas/knowledge on this gun? Thanks for any info. Mike

ttt

Double epreuve means double proof, which is confirmed by the proofmark, repeated twice, you see on each barrel in front of the flats. The 65 means 2 1/2" chambers. Montargis is a small town (about 20,000) in France. Poichauvin is probably the name of the gunshop owner in Montargis who sold the gun. That Roncharc-whatever was probably the barrelmaker, maybe the maker of the entire gun. But what you have, essentially, is a fairly standard St. Etienne boxlock. Pretty much the French equivalent of a Birmingham boxlock. And, in this case, like a lot of Birmingham boxlocks, you've got the name and location of the shop where the gun was sold rather than more specific information about who made it (other than the Roncharc stuff). Very much standard French proofmarks, although the double proof indicates a pretty stout gun. All the references to choke don't tell you anything about how much choke there is. (French guns never do.) They're likely pretty tight.

Mike,

Need someone like Larry Brown to reply (edit - ah, see he did as I was writing this), but it looks like a fairly ordinary boxlock 16 gauge with a somewhat large bore of 17mm versus the normal 16.8mm. Please double check the gauge with a tool!! It has 2-1/2 inch chambers (65 mm or 6.5 cm), double proofed at St. Etienne in France for smokeless, modern powders (PT). Barrels are modern steel. Don't know what the running rabbit means, suspect it's a barrelmaker? Could not find the mark in Gunmarks and nothing on the maker, Ronchard Cizeron in Carders.

Here's what the http://www.littlegun.be site has to say about an earlier hammer gun made by Ronchard Cizeron, the maker of your gun:

QUOTE
Ronchard Cizeron

French shotgun manufactured or sold by Muller in Evreux (Eure) in 1900 close to Rouen. Manufactured barrels with St Etienne by Cizeron and carrying the punch of test of this city of use between 1868 and 1900. [believe yours is later as this refers to a hammer gun - tim]

Probably manufactured towards the end of 19th and tested with the powder nitro as indicated on the top of the barrel. [again, believe yous is later - tim]

Ronchard--Cizeron Joseph: manufacturer with St-Etienne about 1840 - registration of trademark in 1879 - exposures of Paris in 1878 (MB) and 1889 (except contest)

Here explanations of various markings which are reproduced on the weapon.

Canon de sûreté : Security barrel

17.0 : Value of the choke

Perfectionné : Improved

I /.’C Daille ‘Dor (Médaille d’or) : Gold medal

Two palm with crown and “St Etienne” : Punch of the proofhouse of “Saint Etienne” in France. Ordinary test
UNQUOTE

Regards, Tim

I think the double set of crossed palms to indicate a pressure near 16k psi. Also the "Crown" over "PT" is a 1924 mark while the sets of crossed palms are July 30, 1897-1923 marks. After 1923 the double proof would have been 2 "Crowns" over "PT" at 15.6k psi.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Mike,

Here's an extra tidbit from the Verney Carron website:

"Jean Verney-Carron décède en 1961. Albert de Veron de La Combe, neveu d'Auguste Marze, assume la direction avec Claude et Henri, les fils de Jean. La SIFARM (société résultant de la fusion des anciennes manufactures BERTHON Frères, Francisque DARNE, DIDIER-DREVET, GEREST et RONCHARD-CIZERON) est absorbée en 1963, en même temps que la célèbre Canonnerie Jean BREUIL. Verney-Carron souhaite en effet contrôler toute sa fabrication."

which roughly translates: "J V-C died in 1961 and A v de la C, nephew of AM took over with CH, son of the late JV-C. SIFARM (a company formed from old manufacturers Berton, Francisque Darne, Didier-Drevet, Gerest, and Ronchard-Cizeron) was absorbed in 1963, at the same time as the famous barrelmaker Jean Breuil. Verney Carron wished, in effect, to control all elements of its (gun) making."

Regards, Tim

The barrels don't mention "Non pour la balle" so maybe they are not that tightly choked. Better to measure them anyway.

JC

1"=25.4mm
76mm = 2.957" (3")
73mm = 2.874" (2 7/8")
70mm = 2.756" (2 3/4")
67mm = 2.637" (2 5/8")
65mm = 2.559" (2 9/16")
63.5mm = 2.500" (2½")
Many of these "Nominal" dimensions have been used rather loosly by various makers over the years.
For the most part I believe except for some "Very Early" guns most "nominal" 2½" British guns will in fact measure at 65mm or 2 9/16", some even to 2 5/8".
In the US many early 10 & 12ga's were 2 5/8", 16ga 2 9/16" & 20 & 28's 2½". Both 10 & 28 were standardized @ 2 7/8", 12 & 20 Ga @ 2 3/4" with 16ga being the last to go to the 2 3/4" standard. At some much later date the 28ga also dropped back to the 2 3/4" standard.
Other lengths were normally available to order.
Have not actually measured enough metric marked guns to say for ceretain, but I think they were much more apt to "Measure as Marked".

"Non pour la balle" isn't often seen on French guns, except very old (pre-20th century?) ones.

Raimey, according to Kennett, the only crossed palms mark that was no longer valid after 1924 was the old triple black powder proof, which showed 4 of them on each barrel. Double and triple are still valid, double (2 marks) being a black powder proof at 16,500 psi and triple (now 3 marks rather than the old 4) 18,000 psi. Two crowns over PT is slightly different: superior definitive proof with powder T, which is smokeless. From the proofmarks, that gun has a double black powder proof, but just the normal definitive proof with T powder.

Tim's second post confirms (as was almost certain) that Ronchard Cizeron was a St. Etienne maker. Looks like they made guns for various retailers, in this case a gunshop in Montargis.

Mr. Brown:

Thanks for the info which seems to parallel what Wirnsberger penned. Basically the procedure changed and the marks remained the same. The "Crown" over "PT" around 1900 was for semi-smokeless T powder and after 1923 was for a presure of 12k psi at the 1st pressure point with smokeless T powder. Are semi-smokeless T and smokeless T the same and when does the gun in question date? Last the barrel maker had to put his name on the tubes(post 1923??) or the proofhouse would stamp them as foreign tubes as ARME ETRANGERE.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse