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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,219 Likes: 122
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,219 Likes: 122 |
Hi all, I have a technical question regarding chamber length and modern loads.
I just bought a 16ga Greifelt made in 1936 (see previous post). It is your typical German SxS with lots of bolting. The seller was not exactly sure if the chambers are 2 3/4" and I don't know when 2 3/4" being standard on German gun (would like to know this one also). I have two questions on this:
1) If the chambers are 2 3/4" is it safe to shoot modern loads in her (I like Golden Pheasant 1 1/8 oz)?
2) If the chambers are 2 1/2 or 2 9/16" and I have them let out to 2 3/4" are modern loads (like the above) safe to shoot?
The stock is in excellent shape with no cracks or repairs.
Any help on this would be great!!!
Thanks so much!
Greg
Gregory J. Westberg MSG, USA Ret
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 2,307
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 2,307 |
Golden Pheasant are very stout loads. I would not put your fine old Greifelt to that much abuse. Just buy low pressure loads in a 2 1/2" case, available from lots of sources, including PolyWad.com. These are not wimpy loads just because they are low pressure, but they are designed for older guns. There is no reason to lengthen the chambers. Your gun is likely proofed for only a 1 oz load, not 1 1/8, and definitely not the high pressure Golden Pheasant.
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 977
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 977 |
If the gun is not marked "70" on the barrels it was originally chambered for 65mm (2-1/2" or 2-9/16") shells.
The topic of longer shells in shorter chambers has been extensively discussed here on the board as well as being covered by several articles in Double Gun Journal. The gist of all the testing was that chamber length by itself really doesn't affect pressures that much, at least with modern plastic shells and wads, but it also demonstrated the important point that nearly all modern factory 2-3/4" ammo is loaded to pressures in excess of what you want to be feeding older guns no matter what their gauge or chamber length.
Find yourself some verifiably low pressure shells and enjoy your new old Greifelt!
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,418 Likes: 2
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,418 Likes: 2 |
like everybody has been saying...most modern shells have a pressure spike built in to help cycle autoloaders [both gas and recoil operated]....no real balistic advantage over the lower pressure shells that are easier on your shoulder and your vintage gun....
gunut
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 2,522
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 2,522 |
As Steve Meyer said, 1936 German made guns would have specified 70mm if the gun was chambered for 2 3/4" shells. Sixty five mm is the default setting unless marked otherwise. Don't mess up the gun by opening the chambers to the longer length. Either reload the shorter loads yourself or buy them from sources like William Larkin Moore, RST and a few others. I use 7/8oz loads in my old German 16ga with shells from the sources given. Upland birds never know what hit them and that includes SD pheasants.
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,350
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,350 |
Low pressure doesn't reduce performance by a gnat's eyelash in the field.
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,381 Likes: 1
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,381 Likes: 1 |
This issue of chamber length standardization to 70mm is hard to nail. In fact, we are still trying to figure it out for 12 bore in American guns. Some say late 20s and some early to mid 30s, but who really knows? By buying from RST or Polywad you're not 'Hamburgerizing' which needless to say is at this time. My suggestion would be Aguila 1 oz load with Vo of 1200ft/sec. Not 100% sure, but I think each box has CIP monogram.
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,219 Likes: 122
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,219 Likes: 122 |
Hi all and many thanks!! I do have to admitt that I've used RST loads in my Boswell this past year they preformed like champs. So I guess, I'm wondering why I even posted this in the first place!
Still, you do learn and I guess that's why I posted. Besides, I have a couple modern 16's I shoot GP in anyway.
Points well taken and I'll stick to low pressure loads, better safe than sorry.
Thanks again and all the best!
Greg
Gregory J. Westberg MSG, USA Ret
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,384 Likes: 106
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,384 Likes: 106 |
Greg, good advice above. Back in the Dark Ages, before I know what I was doing with vintage doubles, I had a prewar Sauer 16. I had the chambers lengthened to 2 3/4" and shot high brass American pheasant loads in the gun (3 1/4 DE, 1 1/8 oz). Those old German guns are hell for stout and it never shot loose, but I wouldn't do it again!
On the subject of "standardization" at 2 3/4", the 2 1/2" load remained the "standard" in British and European game guns before WWII, and in most countries even for some years after the war. Even in this country, although we were pretty much standardized on 2 3/4" for 12's, 16's, 20's and 28's before the war, all the gunmakers did not make the switch at the same time, nor did they all switch all the gauges at the same time. Elsie 16's, from what I've seen and read, were perhaps the last guns converted to a standard 2 3/4" chamber. I've found Elsie 16's made as late as 1939 or 1940 that still had 2 9/16" chambers.
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Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,618 Likes: 7
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,618 Likes: 7 |
I have a circa 1906 Sauer that was origanlly a 70 MM chamber length and is marked so.
I would assume yours is a 65MM chamber. I had great luck on North Dakota Phez this year using Kent Tradition Gamebore shells in english 6s & 7s - they are loaded to CIP pressure standards and should work well in your gun for pheasants.
Personally I only shoot Fiocchi Golden Pheasants in Pump guns. I do however shoot Fiocchi Game and Target loads in my older 16s - these run approx 7800 PSI or so - they are however 2 3/4 length shells.
Mine's a tale that can't be told, my freedom I hold dear.
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 14,145 Likes: 202
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 14,145 Likes: 202 |
I would use RST ammunition in any prewar 16 gauge European shotgun. Griefelts are very unlikely to have 70MM chambers and the RST shells are both low pressure and high performance. You can get them in some weird plated combinations meant for pheasants or whatever. I prefer their more conservative 16 gauge offerings, but "to each his own". All RST offerings are suitable for older guns including composite barrel guns in good condition.
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Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,618 Likes: 7
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,618 Likes: 7 |
For Dove, Quail and Clays I use the lower pressure RSTs - and they work well.
Mine's a tale that can't be told, my freedom I hold dear.
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,381 Likes: 1
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,381 Likes: 1 |
I would try Fiocchi spreaders in this ole' German thing first. I just hope they don't kick as hard as them Italian made Winchester Ranger 'Streukreuz' loads. Unless you want real tight swarms I would say that plated 'Golden Pheasant' would be near the bottom of my try list. I would go with those cheap Walmart 'Dove or Game' loads by Remington? first. Too bad you bought the dreadful 16ga because I get them 12ga Remington STS and Winchester Extra Light Target loads for my Sterlingworth at Walmart with some regularity. PS. Ok, I would go with that mild und expensive RST stuff they are less expensive then visit to a dentist for fillin' replacements.
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,737 Likes: 96
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,737 Likes: 96 |
I have a 16 bore Greifelt drilling that has original 70mm. chambers. The history of this one was that it was a 'liberated' war trophy. Lagopus.....
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,886 Likes: 201
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,886 Likes: 201 |
Lagopus:
Is there a "70 mm" stamp on the extractor or somewhere on the flats? Would you be so kind as to post a pic?
Kind Regards,
Raimey rse
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,737 Likes: 96
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,737 Likes: 96 |
I will have a look. As the proof marks were pre-war German they were not acceptable as suitable indication of proof here so it went through the Birmingham Proof House for re-proof. Bear with me and I will have a look and post within a couple of days. Lagopus.....
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