doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Technical Question - Greifelt SxS

Hi all, I have a technical question regarding chamber length and modern loads.

I just bought a 16ga Greifelt made in 1936 (see previous post). It is your typical German SxS with lots of bolting. The seller was not exactly sure if the chambers are 2 3/4" and I don't know when 2 3/4" being standard on German gun (would like to know this one also). I have two questions on this:

1) If the chambers are 2 3/4" is it safe to shoot modern loads in her (I like Golden Pheasant 1 1/8 oz)?

2) If the chambers are 2 1/2 or 2 9/16" and I have them let out to 2 3/4" are modern loads (like the above) safe to shoot?

The stock is in excellent shape with no cracks or repairs.

Any help on this would be great!!!

Thanks so much!

Greg

Golden Pheasant are very stout loads. I would not put your fine old Greifelt to that much abuse. Just buy low pressure loads in a 2 1/2" case, available from lots of sources, including PolyWad.com. These are not wimpy loads just because they are low pressure, but they are designed for older guns. There is no reason to lengthen the chambers. Your gun is likely proofed for only a 1 oz load, not 1 1/8, and definitely not the high pressure Golden Pheasant.

If the gun is not marked "70" on the barrels it was originally chambered for 65mm (2-1/2" or 2-9/16") shells.

The topic of longer shells in shorter chambers has been extensively discussed here on the board as well as being covered by several articles in Double Gun Journal. The gist of all the testing was that chamber length by itself really doesn't affect pressures that much, at least with modern plastic shells and wads, but it also demonstrated the important point that nearly all modern factory 2-3/4" ammo is loaded to pressures in excess of what you want to be feeding older guns no matter what their gauge or chamber length.

Find yourself some verifiably low pressure shells and enjoy your new old Greifelt!

like everybody has been saying...most modern shells have a pressure spike built in to help cycle autoloaders [both gas and recoil operated]....no real balistic advantage over the lower pressure shells that are easier on your shoulder and your vintage gun....

As Steve Meyer said, 1936 German made guns would have specified 70mm if the gun was chambered for 2 3/4" shells. Sixty five mm is the default setting unless marked otherwise. Don't mess up the gun by opening the chambers to the longer length. Either reload the shorter loads yourself or buy them from sources like William Larkin Moore, RST and a few others. I use 7/8oz loads in my old German 16ga with shells from the sources given. Upland birds never know what hit them and that includes SD pheasants.

Low pressure doesn't reduce performance by a gnat's eyelash in the field.

This issue of chamber length standardization to 70mm is hard to nail. In fact, we are still trying to figure it out for 12 bore in American guns. Some say late 20s and some early to mid 30s, but who really knows?
By buying from RST or Polywad you're not 'Hamburgerizing' which needless to say is at this time. My suggestion would be Aguila 1 oz load with Vo of 1200ft/sec. Not 100% sure, but I think each box has CIP monogram.

Hi all and many thanks!! I do have to admitt that I've used RST loads in my Boswell this past year they preformed like champs. So I guess, I'm wondering why I even posted this in the first place!

Still, you do learn and I guess that's why I posted. Besides, I have a couple modern 16's I shoot GP in anyway.

Points well taken and I'll stick to low pressure loads, better safe than sorry.

Thanks again and all the best!

Greg

Greg, good advice above. Back in the Dark Ages, before I know what I was doing with vintage doubles, I had a prewar Sauer 16. I had the chambers lengthened to 2 3/4" and shot high brass American pheasant loads in the gun (3 1/4 DE, 1 1/8 oz). Those old German guns are hell for stout and it never shot loose, but I wouldn't do it again!

On the subject of "standardization" at 2 3/4", the 2 1/2" load remained the "standard" in British and European game guns before WWII, and in most countries even for some years after the war. Even in this country, although we were pretty much standardized on 2 3/4" for 12's, 16's, 20's and 28's before the war, all the gunmakers did not make the switch at the same time, nor did they all switch all the gauges at the same time. Elsie 16's, from what I've seen and read, were perhaps the last guns converted to a standard 2 3/4" chamber. I've found Elsie 16's made as late as 1939 or 1940 that still had 2 9/16" chambers.

I have a circa 1906 Sauer that was origanlly a 70 MM chamber length and is marked so.

I would assume yours is a 65MM chamber. I had great luck on North Dakota Phez this year using Kent Tradition Gamebore shells in english 6s & 7s - they are loaded to CIP pressure standards and should work well in your gun for pheasants.

Personally I only shoot Fiocchi Golden Pheasants in Pump guns. I do however shoot Fiocchi Game and Target loads in my older 16s - these run approx 7800 PSI or so - they are however 2 3/4 length shells.