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GregSY #113986 09/22/08 10:56 PM
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i disagree that pushing the gun away and bringing back during the mount is wrong. after reading of that method in i'm pretty sure Greener's book, i tried it and it really works well. gun never hangs up. as far as a shorter LOP goes, one could hang up the heel of a gun with any length of pull if he held it in too close. once the movement is learned it isn't a bit slower and lop becomes even less an issue.

i'll agree that pitch shouldn't have anything to do with where a gun points but i once got curious about why some of my guns just seemed to take an awful lot of work to hit with and i went thru an exercise with every shotgun i had at the time and the only thing consistent among the ones that took a lot of work was a far greater amount of drop. i can't mathematically reconcile that in my mind but the trend has continued thru every gun since then. it could just be coincidence in other factors but it's been too constant to ignore that any gun that has a lot of pitch, i either can't hit with or have to work very hard at it, regardless of any of the guns other dimensions. and that's using pasture trap as a baseline; if you miss much at pasture trap, something's wrong.

roger

rwmckee #114023 09/23/08 08:36 AM
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You may also have it backwards, Greg. If people use a gun with a shorter LOP, they only have to put it directly to their shoulder. And if they bought a gun with a longer LOP, then they have learned that they have to move the gun away from their body when they mount the gun. But the same person might always bring a gun straight to their shoulder- they just happened to buy one with a longer LOP.

Jimmy W #114025 09/23/08 08:56 AM
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Jimmy - I went back and re-read what I wrote and it is the same as what you are saying.

Jimmy W #114027 09/23/08 09:13 AM
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Just to clarify - I never said the method of pushing the gun away from your body before you bring it to your shoulder was wrong; I said that if you have to do that to mount your gun then the LOP of that gun is too long.

Even if the LOP is correct, that method is not one that I prefer because it requires an additional movement to obtain a proper gun mount. I believe that the more proficient and efficient you are with your gun mount the more targets (or birds) you will hit.
In some disciplines (live pigeon, particularly Columbaire) I don't think you have time for anything but the most efficient gun mount. If someone says they shoot better doing it the other way then that's what they should do. The bottom line to any shooting system is to answer this question - By doing this am I shooting better or not?

I'll throw two cents in on pitch while I'm here. Pitch, in and of itself, has no efect on where a gun shoots. I shoot with some guys that can break more targets shooting from the hip that I can with my best gun mount. Since the gun is not on their shoulder what possible difference can the pitch make? (i.e.,the Tom Knapp example given earlier).

Having said that - it all comes back to the gun mount. If the pitch isn't right you are more likely to improperly mount your gun. If you don't have enough pitch you are more likely to catch the heel of the stock on your shoulder, and if not corrected, you will shoot high. Reverse is true with too much pitch, you may catch the toe and shoot low. Again, this really doesn't apply to to disciplines where a premounted gun is allowed. It is most applicable in disciplines where you have a fraction of a second to acquire the target, mount your gun and kill it.

HackCW #114029 09/23/08 09:21 AM
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I think the theory behind the 'move the gun away' method is that it is instinctive; you are essentially beginning to track the target with the gun from the get-go. While bringing the gun directly to your shoulder may be more efficient, it probably detracts from what is going on in your brain. i.e. 'get a lock on the target'.

GregSY #114042 09/23/08 10:47 AM
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Greg:

No arguement. Some techniques work better for some shooters than others do. Whichever method makes a shooter shoot more effectively is the one the he should use.

HackCW #114049 09/23/08 11:20 AM
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In some disciplines (live pigeon, particularly Columbaire) I don't think you have time for anything but the most efficient gun mount

Unless something has changed both of those disciplines are shot premounated. I have only shot columbaire.

Another aspect in which I may be the only subscriber in the world is "slightly longer LOP kicks less".

HackCW #114051 09/23/08 11:24 AM
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i thought pigeon and columbaire were shot high gun. or pigeon at least.

one thing i like about pushing the gun away is the movement once learned is the same regardless of clothing. if one develops a habitual gun mount in the summer wearing a t-shirt, a change of seasons can induce a problem until the mount or the LOP is adjusted. with texas weather being what it is, i've gone from t-shirts one week to an army field jacket with liner 2 weeks later and not had to re-adapt. the biggest factor in speed is habit - the things you do that do not require concious thought.

roger

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Some shoot it high gun, but a lot don't. The ones that don't shoot some form of modified low gun, not as low as FITASC or International disciplines. The ones that don't shoot high gun do not do so because they feel they can pick the bird up quicker by not doing so. Again, it's a matter of what works best for the individual shooter.

rwmckee #114405 09/25/08 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted By: fnb25
one thing i like about pushing the gun away is the movement once learned is the same regardless of clothing. if one develops a habitual gun mount in the summer wearing a t-shirt, a change of seasons can induce a problem until the mount or the LOP is adjusted.
roger



I'm the last one that should be espousing any method, but this struck a chord with me. I have found that i have very little need for a shorter lop in the winter, even with quite cold temps and appropriate clothing to sit knee deep for hours after breaking ice off a duck puddle. I'll start my bird season in a t-shirt and finish when others say it's too cold to ice-fish...so this makes sense to me.

People gasp when I tell them I just stocked my new fox at a bit over 16"...but from the crook of my elbow to the crook of my index finger is 16.5" and it shoots 55/45 patterns dead on. Did I just put a stock on that's too short?? Hope not Being that this is not a "normal" measurement and is usually the most off of the other stock dimensions by far, I certainly find LOP to be the most critical measurement on most off-the-shelf guns. Having finally settled on a fit that works pretty well for me, now I can get to the business of truly improving my shooting as my consistency is dramatically improved.

Last edited by David Furman; 09/25/08 09:25 PM.
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