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Bonhams Auction 2014
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10 registered (61bhs, Dave K, Jerry V Lape, jcn, 2-piper, 1 invisible), 42 Guests and 2 Spiders online.
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#9412 - 11/09/06 02:24 PM W.R. Pape shotguns
S&Snut Offline
Boxlock

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 2
Loc: Finland, Europe
I found a lovely S&S shotgun made by W.R. Pape for sale in a small gunshop. I didn't find much information of W.R. Pape shotguns on the internet (Google search). All I found was some photos of nice shotguns and short story of "Purdey of North". Based on the results of the search I assume that Pape shotguns are often worth of buing.

Can anyone tell me where to find more information on Pape shotguns (on the ineternet if possible)? I'm very grateful of any information related to Pape's production.

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#9414 - 11/09/06 02:36 PM Re: W.R. Pape shotguns [Re: S&Snut]
Mike Harrell Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 12/31/01
Posts: 3070
Loc: Alaska

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#9438 - 11/09/06 04:30 PM Re: W.R. Pape shotguns [Re: Mike Harrell]
S&Snut Offline
Boxlock

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 2
Loc: Finland, Europe
Thanks for your advice Mike. I hope I'll find some answers there.
Any Pape owners here? Positive and negatives comments related to Pape shotguns are needed. What do you know about Pape's quality? Is there the whole variety from excellent guns to medium and cheap ones? Any tips to find out if certain Pape shotgun is a good or only moderate quality gun (serial number etc.)?

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#9452 - 11/09/06 05:45 PM Re: W.R. Pape shotguns [Re: S&Snut]
Small Bore Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 10/29/06
Posts: 1489
Loc: Ludlow & London
Pape guns vary in quality - many of his guns are Birmingham made guns that he finished in-house.

Pape had a genuine style about him and some of his best guns are outstanding. He was not averse to unusual engraving and fanct checkering patterns - especially on hammer guns.

Pape was of course credited with having patented choke boring in the UK, thoug it was Greener who developed it properly and saw the potential it held.

I have some nice photos of unusual Papes I'll e-mail them to you if you like as I'm too stupid to manage getting them up on site.

I doubt you'l be disappointed in the gun if you get it for a fair price.
_________________________
www.vintageguns.co.uk

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#9494 - 11/09/06 10:38 PM Re: W.R. Pape shotguns [Re: Small Bore]
Jim Moore Offline
Sidelock

Registered: 01/18/02
Posts: 191
Loc: Washington State
You may want to search out Doug Tate over on the SSBB. I believe he writes for this publication (quite well I might add) and is an authority on Brit guns and Pape's in particular. He is member 39 on that board and might respond to a PM. If not buy his book which has a great deal of information on Birmingham guns.

Jim
_________________________
I've never met a bird dog I didn't like.

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#9515 - 11/10/06 06:45 AM Re: W.R. Pape shotguns [Re: Jim Moore]
Rocketman Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 5080
Take care that you don't attribute too much information about a gun to the maker's name. For example, Pape sold both "best" quality grade guns and guns of very ordinary (by Brit standards) quality grade. He, like all gunmakers, had to sell what his customers were willing and had the money to buy. So, the name "Pape" on a gun doesn't tell you anything definitive about the guns quality grade.

To arrive at a basic valuation, you have to consider the Brand Value level of the maker's name, the Original Quality grade of the individual gun, and the Current Condition level. If you are interested in some information on valuing Brit guns, PM me an email address and I'll send you a set of Excel (if you don't run Excel, send a land address and I'll send hard copy).

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#9813 - 11/12/06 05:52 AM Re: W.R. Pape shotguns [Re: S&Snut]
Harry Eales Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 05/06/06
Posts: 584
Loc: England.
Originally Posted By: S&Snut
I found a lovely S&S shotgun made by W.R. Pape for sale in a small gunshop. I didn't find much information of W.R. Pape shotguns on the internet (Google search). All I found was some photos of nice shotguns and short story of "Purdey of North". Based on the results of the search I assume that Pape shotguns are often worth of buing.

Can anyone tell me where to find more information on Pape shotguns (on the ineternet if possible)? I'm very grateful of any information related to Pape's production.


Hello S&S,

W.R.Pape owned and operated a small gunsmithing and fishing tackle shop situated in Westgate Road, Newcastle upon Tyne, England from from approx 1870 to about 1914. He made single and double barrelled shotguns and a number of small calibre rifles classed as Rook Rifles. (Rooks are a member of the Crow family of birds). His company produced the shotguns in several qualities, from the everyday working gun intended for gamekeepers and the like, to the highest quality side by side guns that could rival anything produced in London or Birmingham. His earliest shotguns were Damascus Barrelled but he turned to 'Fluid Steel' when it became available. I understand some of his 'working guns' were made up from actions made by some of the Birmingham gunsmiths which he barrelled and stocked. His high quality shotguns and the rifles were made entirely 'in shop'.

The quality of his work was superb as was the casing of his guns. He died after being hit by an motor vehicle outside his shop.

Two of his senior workmen continued his business trading under the name Bagnall and Kirkwood but gunsmithing on the premises ceased soon afterwards and the shop simply sold guns by other manufacturers and fishing tackle. The business continued in the same premises until the 1960's when it moved to Grey Street, Newcastle upon Tyne where it exists today. The original premisis were demolished for redevelopement of the area. Ownership has changed several times over the decades but the trading name of Bagnall and Kirkwood still exists today.

During the 1960's onwards I was a regular visitor to the shops. None of the original machinery from Papes day remained in existance although there was a large wooden packing case filled with parts of Papes products including several Rook Rifle single shot actions (all alas now all long gone).

There are a good number of Papes shotguns still in daily use in the surrounding counties of Northumberland and Durham and some of his finest products are still prized by local shooters today.

Pape also marketed shotgun cartridges and reloading equipment marked with his tradename, but these were produced for him by Eley, Kynock and other manufacturers, and were not loaded in his own workshops. Like many gunsmiths of his day he had weapons sold in his shop engraved with his name although he didn't manufacture them. I have seen at least one Luger pistol and one Mauser pistol bearing his company name. All guns of his manufacture had his name and address engraved on the barrel or receiver or both parts.

Operating from a north country town instead of one of the large gunmaking areas meant he was not as widely known as other gun manufacturers and his production totals were relatively small, in relation to other companies. Pape was one of the last small independant English gunsmiths capable of building a quality weapon from start to finish in his own workshop. Even at his peak he only had two or three workmen assisting him in his machine shop.

Harry


Edited by Harry Eales (11/12/06 05:53 AM)
_________________________
Biology is the only science where multiplication can be achieved by division.

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#9952 - 11/13/06 06:46 AM Re: W.R. Pape shotguns [Re: Harry Eales]
Rocketman Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 5080
HE - really nice post. Thanks.

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#10005 - 11/13/06 10:24 AM Re: W.R. Pape shotguns [Re: Rocketman]
Paul Bradshaw Offline
Member

Registered: 07/18/05
Posts: 57
Loc: Warrington, PA
Champlin Arms has a truly lovely Pape shown (but not for sale, just for oogling) on its web site. Well worth the look.

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#10027 - 11/13/06 02:18 PM Re: W.R. Pape shotguns [Re: Paul Bradshaw]
Pat White Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 02/23/02
Posts: 92
Loc: West Michigan
I own a keepers gun from Pape. 1881, round body, back action hammer gun. Modest but nice engraving, even on the hammers, twist damascus, wonderful lines and well balanced. Got it very cheap,as it was a mess. Kearcher restored it. Turned out to have very pretty fiddleback walnut stock, an unexpected, but pleasant surprise. Of course the checkering pattern is unique, even on an "entry" level gun.

Fit, finish, feel all excellent. I love the gun, and others all enjoy the chance to shoot a 125 year old firearm when I take it out. .035 min. barrel thickness even after honing.

I doubt you will be disappointed with a Pape, if the price is anywhere near reasonable. Monty Whitley had a couple for sale on his site as well. Very pretty guns.

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