doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com "abeille"

What?

Robert, "what" about your gracious offer to provide your patent research to Larry Brown and give Beagledog a bastogne stock blank suitable for restocking his "Bee"?...Geo

Darnation,

Here are the folowing two pages from the Caunier catalog...after that the rest of the shotguns are of the more conventional type.




Geo,

I'm trying to figure out how to post them so that anyone who wants to follow along... can

Right now the only way I can post them is to print each and every page...just so I can photograph each page, correct the gamma, and upload the photos to photobucket, so I can post the images here...I'm hoping someone will tell me how to post PDF files...I would rather not print 400 pages, but I will if I have to...

As for the stock blank...I found a lovely piece that was so red, that I cut the flich with a one piece Darne (mine) in mind. The cutting was laid out so that the grain would be exactly correct for a PoW Darne...I was worried back then that my first (and only) Darne re-stock job might crack upon firing...but that test is long past and I've final sanded and finished the gun...

I like the red look on a French or Belgian gun because it looks more original...The tree came from the Clarence Library when they built a new annex (8 yrs ago)...the Dutchman and I cut it into fliches and solar kiln dried them before we cut them into blanks (5 yrs ago)...

Larry Brown has yet to complete his end of the bargain though...but I assume he's a man of his word...

Beag will have to send me his address...

Robert's offer still sounds to me like a good deal all around...Geo

Sounds like a great deal to me! Robert, that gun you made the stock for is a Darne, not a copy? As I said earlier, it sure came out nice.

[quote=Robert Chambers


Whatever degree I have misinterpreted...whatever degree Larry Brown is just being ignorant (he owned a Darne once). . .
[/quote]

Well Robert, I'll let the readers decide for themselves on the subjects of your misinterpretation and my ignorance by summarizing this thread, to this point:

On p. 1, you offer to Beagle to "explain what your gun is".

On p. 2, you refer to an "1894 patent Darne but made by Charlin" (of which you later post a photo).

On p. 3, you refer to a "catalog photo of a 1929 Charlin" (seemingly the same 1894 Darne patent gun).

On p. 4, Ted agrees that the photo is indeed of a gun built on the 1894 Darne patent. So you and Ted agree on that much. But . . .

On p. 5, we finally get the full page photos of a sliding breech gun called a "Regina". Not only is there no indication ANYWHERE on that page that the gun was built by Charlin, but on the bottom of the page, it clearly reads: "See the famous Charlin shotgun ON THE NEXT PAGE"--which would certainly seem to indicate that while the Regina is an 1894 Darne clone of some sort, it was probably not built by Charlin. Likely just another of the many non-Darne built, non-Charlin built, Darne clones.
And on the next catalog page--the one with the REAL Charlin, clearly identified and described as such--we learn that Caunier simply REPRESENTS Charlin (as a dealer--much like any dealer that sells more than one make of gun), and we're not talking about a catalog that deals exclusively with Charlin shotguns.

So your research, Robert--assuming you weren't trying to lead us all down the garden path and celebrate April 1 either a little early or a little late--runs into the significant obstacle posed by your not being able to understand what's written on the pages you posted. (Although it's awfully convenient, I'd say, that your first photo of the catalog page with the Regina/Darne clone both left out the name "Regina" and the rest of the sentence which told us that the famous Charlin was on the NEXT page, not the page we were looking at.)

So other than giving Beagle some advice on making his own stock (and maybe helping him find the proper blank), we've pretty much ended up back where we started: He has a Darne clone. Built by Charlin? Maybe, but likely not--because, as M. Gournet points out, we still have no evidence (although we did take a very interesting trip around the block, ending up back where we started) that Charlin built any Darne clones, let alone Beagle's "Abeille".

Just a suggestion, but you might want to post information in French that you don't understand, and ask for the help of those of us who do, before you try to beat Ted or me or anyone else over the head with your "evidence". No harm done, however . . . just another "woops" moment.

As for the patent research, I'm not sure where the difficulty lies. As long as you have a drawing (which you should have, for anything gun related), a date, and to whom the patent was assigned, what more do you need?

Very interesting....

OK Larry,
What's the meaning of Regina? What does that mean? Was there a Regina factory somewhere? was there a "Abeille" factory somewhere?

Of course not...your just being obstinate...it appears (do you know what "it appears" means???) It appears that all across France sporting goods dealers carried sliders of Darne and Charlin descent with their own trade name and sometimes another generic name...IN MUCH THE SAME WAY THAT HARDWARE STORES WERE ABLE TO HERE IN AMERICA...AND IN THE SAME WAY THAT BELGIAN MAKERS DID. It's strange how you seem to understand how the trade worked in some instances, yet you go into denial when you choose not to understand this fundamental marketing strategy..

You obviously understand the way the "hardware store" gun worked in France, yet you couldn't just say that to Beagle...

I wish you would just stop playing both sides and simply tell Beagle that his gun a unmarked Darne or Charlin hardware type gun. NOT A CHEAP CLONE...what's wrong with you?

Just because a gun is marked Tryon, doesn't mean it's a Baker clone.

Finally we are at the crux of the problem...I am sickened by the way the so-called experts tell every hardware Darne owner that his gun is some sort of "cheap" clone....as though it is a "knock-off" copy...that crap woulndn't fly with hardware store Meridens or Bakers...why do you think it would fly with Darne and Charlin guns...(because the guys at this board don't know enough to call you on it)

But I know why...because when you're selling, it's a treasure...when you're buying, it's a cheap copy (especially Ted)...real nice

How can I ever forge an alliance with anyone who consistantly demonstrates this behavior?

Now straighten up and fly right...this quagmire is completely of your making...and you won't give it up.

How can you even think you're a Darne expert, when you've only owned one, and you haven't taken the time to review (own) any catalogs, or Darne/Charlin history? Prove me wrong, post those Darne catalog photos tonight...not Teds, yours.

I'm not even a Darne collector, but it's clear to me that your even more a beginner than I...

I've owned 3 Darnes 1 Charlin plus the one I have now...I've restocked and repaired the one I currently have...I own several catalogs and c50 patents related to Darne...and I'm still a Darne beginner in every sense of the word...I just don't understand why you've placed yourself in such a lofty position.

Every time someone labels a Darne hardware store gun a "cheap clone"...I'm sickened by the shark like behavior...because I've been around gun collectors long enough to know why some collectors do this...to slight or "poo-poo" the other persons gun...there is no other reason...

Before you come back with some new twisted (re-thought)perspective...bear in mind...many readers have already been the victim of this type of behavior from other gun collectors...they know this game intimately...and they'll know if my words ring of truth...

tWo chea....

Robert, I give you credit for a cogently argued and--given the comparable "remarquing" of both British and American guns--plausible hypothesis concerning the origin of all these bees and queens. Sometimes I wish you would state your seat-of-the-pants intution about how the world works first before you cook the evidence!

jack