doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com "abeille"

Very interesting Charlin catalog.
I do not want offend anyone by misunderstanding some aspect of this long conversation.
Should I understand than Charlin copied the Darne R model ?

Beag,
Larry brought up a point I hadn't considered..."And where'd you get the wood? Carve the stock yourself, from scratch? " as he put it...

Carving the outside of the stock the easiest part once you determined and layed out the buttplate. These few rudimentary tools make it possible to rough carve the outside of stock in a few hours. The carbide burrs cut allow you to rough shape the wood with ease. The squirrel tail plane is an invaluable tool and can be had for had for around $20, but any small block plane will do...the die grinders are less than $20 and you don't need two...

Now I know that you may not be a woodworker, but wood carving is not a cost prohibitive hobby...in fact it's alot more rewarding than buying a gun for 200 and selling it for 400...the almighty ($) bottom line is not the only way to enjoy this Abeille that you've found down on her knees...If you want to nurse this gun back into the field, I say, go for it...if not, I say sell it to me...

Darnation,
That's not exactly what I'm saying. What I'm saying is...it's too early in our collective knowledge to know who copied who...and who licensed who to build their design...and when the patents expired and it became public technology, as happened to Verney Carron with the Helice action.

We don't know yet if Darne incorporated design changes that first appeared on Charlins...or the other way around...

Would you like to share in the collective project that I've offered Larry? Perhaps you have space to post them for everyone to examine.

I'm actually a pretty proficient wood carver and I don't think the project would be difficult at all. I can take a chunk of 2x4 and carve you whatever you tell me to carve with just a pen knife in a short period of time, so I am sure I can make a one piece gunstock...especially when I have one right in front of me to use as a pattern. I will have to locate the wood though.

Beag,
Does the name Jim Aireman sound familiar? Viet Nam vet with one leg and a rough attitude? I hunted grouse with him along the western Pa/Ny border back in the late 80's...he had a hunting partner name Beagle..Jim lived in Wellsville...broke his good leg grouse hunting and died a few days later at the Buffalo VA hospital...

Is there any chance that your the same Beagle? (so named for his incredible hunting skills)

Sorry, but no. I'm near the Pa/Wv/Oh border, about an hour or less from Pittsburgh.

Robert, I'm only interested in seeing Beagle get his Abeille up and running. Or get rid of it and find another one, stock already attached, whichever he chooses to do. If he can (and wants to) make his own stock, then the only investment would be for a good, well-cured walnut stock blank. And perhaps getting it checkered, if he didn't feel that's a job he wanted to take on. When he's done, I hope it looks, feels, and handles like it did with its original stock. And serves him well, and . . . "stings like a bee".

Translation . . . I will certainly be glad to "gist" anything, IF IT'S FOR PUBLIC INFORMATION ON THIS FORUM. I won't promise a complete, word for word translation. I learned my lesson on that when I translated "The Will of the Marechal de Belle-Isle" (an 18th century French general) for the French liaison officer at Ft Leavenworth. Ran to about 30 pages. He then wanted me to translate the French equivalent of the Army Operations Field Manual, which was at least 10 times as long.

And finally, on the "Abeille/Abielle" thing . . . to paraphrase "Star Wars", "Let go your anger, Robert!" Abeille/Abielle, had there been two such similar makers' names, could have been of the same nature as making sure people don't buy a Barker when they're looking for a Parker. Turned out the problem did not really exist. Next issue . . .

I have a similar catalog from 1929, Mr. Chambers-but, it is from a retailer that sold BOTH Francisque Darne and Charlin models-and, it has a page very similar to the one you have shown. That illustration, by the way, is an 1894 patent style gun, which, anybody was free to copy, after Regis Darne began building the 1909 patent guns.

While Charlin may, or may not have, built exact, Regis Darne style sliding breech guns, they DID in fact built their own rendition of the sliding breech gun, that is the Charlin that is almost always encountered. It is one thing to show an ad, patent or a photo of something, quite another to procure an example for all to see, quite another still to say that such a gun was the main product of a company like Charlin, or, even a design that was available-no one has seen a Tobin hammer gun, but, they were cataloged.

Why? Who knows.

The main Charlin gun, their gun of fame, the money maker, the gun of the great majority of future Charlin catalogs ( I have a few) has no axle through the breechblock. It is an over the center device, non locked breech sliding breech double. They made lots of them, and it it the sliding breech gun design they promoted.

I can say this, because the very great majority of Charlin guns I have seen and owned, here and in Europe, saving a rather interesting O/U, were the typical, non locked breech Charlin. It is the only gun listed in the Charlin catalogs I have. And I have a few Charlin catalogs.

Since you brought it up, is there a chance we could see a photo of the whole page that shows that 1894 Darne patent gun, and mentions the Charlin? I'd be interested in seeing it, and, Larry would provide pretty good translation for little or no money, I think.

A nice clear shot of the whole page would be quite enlightening-and, it would be nice to see that other Charlin patent, regarding swivel attachment to a plume rib barrel that you offered before the last post was locked down, so to speak.

Thanks in advance.
Best,
Ted

What a deal. Beagledog gets a free stock blank or two from Robert. Larry gets the benefit of Robert's European patent research for free. He can translate it and write an SSM or DGJ article, or maybe a fat book deal, and Ted (and the rest of us) can read the article. Robert gets his research published (and gets to find out what it all says, in English), Larry gets another good publishing credit, and Ted can still be our premier French Backslider expert since the Bruchets have probably already told him all this stuff anyway. I can't wait to see this happen???...Geo

To Robert.
Could you scan the full page of your catalog ?
Thank you