doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com "abeille"

Some people just never give up
Casey

hey, not my gun I would like to know what his gun is.

Ted, here is a picture of my Halifax to help clarify the patent issue, one piece stock, rocker style safety in the lower metal:


JC

Casey,
Once you take over the thread with any alternate motive, especially something ego driven, you should have the answer at hand.
Besides, when a customer of Dave Weber's comes here for information (usually about a gun that they own), they have a right as consumers to at least read the information available. Larry and Ted have pretty much told him his gun is dead and to "leave it where you found it" ...that it's not worth having it restocked....Larry says "Ted's comments about restocking make a lot of sense."

About the only nugget of real information that can be taken to the bank so far is that sliders sometimes came with a one piece stock and somtimes a two piece stock.

It hasn't even been determined if the gun is of Darne or Charlin lineage. You can't just say It's a "Darne" (based on an inflated opinion of myself/yourself), you should say, it's a "Darne" because only the Darnes had a particular feature that's right there on your gun. If no one else can counter your observation on a Charlin, then the customer comes away with info based in reasoning and knowledge.

It just doesn't seem right that the guy wanted to know more about his gun and all he got was "it's dead, don't touch it" ...and "pay no attention to the other members who speak out of turn, we'll teach them a lesson"

And Beag goes off never learning about his gun...

Face it, Beag is just collateral damage to you some of you guys...you don't even care if he gets a truthful answer...tell me I'm wrong...did anyone other than myself even try to address the question Beag presented ...Who made this gun?

Now I stood back and allowed these guys to speak first, second, third, and tenth...unless there is some sort of further pecking order censorship, perhaps I could go back in time two weeks and finish addressing the question...

Would that be alright with you Casey? Have you got some information to offer about Abeille? I have 10 bucks that says that you don't have one bite of info about Abeille and your just here to shore up the pecking order. Prove me wrong Casey...please...tell everyone what you know about Beags gun.

The gun has been pronounced "dead" by both of the French wizards at this system...how damaging can my lowly opinion be?

JC,
Thank you for helping to clarify the patent issue, I too will post in response to your photo...probably the most valuable bit of info I have to contribute to the patented model concept is unfortunately contrary...it's an old Caunier catalog that clearly shows what's currently accepted as a 1894 patent Darne but made by Charlin. If the whole 1894 patent notion is correct, why the would Charlin be manufacturing guns of anothers patent?

A good many pieces of the puzzle are still apart in the Darne story...too many for any member to squelch another contributing members voice...especially for spelling

First off, I don't mind the banter between members in response to my questions. Actually I find it amusing, until the subject gets locked by the administrator. That just means I have to start over again with a new post. No big deal. The stock is one piece. The safety is not the rocker type. I believe it is the rotating type. One of you showed me an example of a gun which had the exact safety as mine...right down to the SUR written on one side of it...just can't seem to locate the pic. Robert, and anyone else who cares to give their two cents: any info you have would be greatly appreciated. Thank you

Beag,
Glad you didn't go away without the info that you came for, as happens quite often at this system. Pecking order often trumps accuracy right into the ground around here.

I'll start preparing the photos after I shovel the snow, although it's dark here (5:15)...photo's are better in daylight...

Again I apologize for what happened to your thread, I was truly trying to address the question of your gun...I didn't realize that I had misspelled the name...The underlying truth is, it had nothing to do with spelling, I spoke out of turn....I hope that you got to see the "L'Abeille" photo that I posted...the one Larry challenged the existence of.

Now if the thes guys will allow it...I will try to address the question of who made your gun...believe me, if I make the slightest mistake they'll have a regular roasting...

Robert, if you have a different opinion than the one Ted posted (and I think Ted has pretty good credentials where Darne/Charlin shotguns are concerned), why don't you just express it? No need to get confrontational about the whole business. If you do, I do not intend to go down that road with you again.

And there is no "pecking order" here. Good information is good information, whether you come up with it, I come up with it, or Ted comes up with it. That's what this place is all about: an exchange of information. As for the question of Beagle restocking his gun . . . well, I do have experience (not good) with a restocked Darne. Fortunately, I did not pay for the restocking, and ended up buying the gun for less than the cost of the stock work. I think Beagle should know that restocking any gun isn't cheap, and restocking a Darne can be both expensive and fraught with problems. That's my opinion, based on my experience. I won't speak for Ted, but I expect that's also where he's coming from. And opinions may be freely exchanged here without any concern for "pecking order".

And please, Robert, don't start misquoting me again. I never "challenged the existence" of any photo of a "L'Abeille" shotgun. I did ask to see proof that a shotgun called "L'Abielle"--which is what you claimed you had, in about 3 different posts--actually existed. You see, I don't think I know everything. I've seen stranger stuff than two makers' names (like Parker/Barker, you know) only one letter apart, so I thought there was some possibility--however slight--that might be the case with Abeille/Abielle. Turned out there was no "L'Abielle", which is fine with me. And if you had simply said at that point, "Woops, I had the wrong spelling", well . . .that would have been the end of the story. As it is now, as far as I'm concerned.

Merry Christmas to you, and to you a good night!

Jeez, Chambers, give it a rest. Have your mom give you a time out or call your shrink...If you have something to contribute, do so......If you want to excercise your paranoias, try nutcase.com Some of us are actually interested in this stuff...

The gun isn't a Darne-it doesn't say Darne on it. That nugget is a freebie, since, every catalog I have on Darne guns going back to 1909 trumpets the fact that Darne guns always say Darne on them, somewhere.

And, if a gun with a sliding breech isn't marked Darne, it is a clone. That is nugget two.

Nugget number three is, it is not a Charlin. A Charlin does not have an axle that passes between the sides of the sliding breech. The reason it doesn't have an axle, is, a Charlin is not toggle locked, and the opening lever doesn't need to be mounted to the breechblock, and, is not-it is mounted in the lower watertable metal that mounts the stock, and allows the breech to slide on. I have seen (in France) one Darne action that was marked Charlin, which, the Bruchets assured me was most definitely built by Darne in the early 1960s. They owned what was left of Charlin by then, having purchased it in 1955.

While I'm sure there are people that believe a large treasure trove of information exists/ will be forthcoming in a book about French guns, this ignores the basic fact that France has suffered through two periods of unfriendly occupation right in the middle of the golden age of gunmaking. Records were lost, destroyed, stolen and outright obfuscated during both periods of occupation. I tried some basic research at the libraries in Lyon and St. Etienne when I was there, and almost nothing I could use was to be found. I wish I could tell you exactly who built this gun, where and at what time frame it was built, but, I can't, and anyone else who might is AWOL, at present. Until that guy shows up, we can endlessly speculate about the above, or, delve into some simple facts about low grade sliding breech guns in general, low grade clones, in particular, of which no one should argue that this gun most definitely is, and when quantities of money that involve things like restocking should be thrown at those guns.

Routinely, I get calls from people that have already purchased basket case guns of various sliding breech manufacturers, wanting to know, how much they should have paid (late for that train) and how much it will cost to get it barrels, a new breech, or a new stock, or, what have you. It is always a sad thing to inform them that most of the time, you just can't get there from here. It is inpractical, almost universally so, to spend the money it takes to repair a low grade slider with the above problems.

Can it be done? Why yes. But, it usually shouldn't. One can find functional, low grade sliding breech guns for not a whole lot of money.

Since our hero has taken it upon himself to rescue this gun, actual facts about who built it, when, and where, will be, at this point in the guns history and condition, no more than anecdotal-there is, no warehouse in France, fillled to the brim with new, fitted, checkered and finished Abielle stocks, ready to bolt on to his gun, allowing him to go hunting after a friendly visit from the UPS man. The above facts, which our friend Robert takes such glee in pointing out that no-one has provided, would be interesting-and, useless to the rescue of this gun.

Got that, Robert? Knowing who built it, where, or when isn't going to help get him a 25 straight patch with it. The man said he wanted to use it. That, to me, is the most relevant part of this discussion.

What might be helpful, would be providing a bit of guidance on the economic realities of attempting to put a gun like this back in service. That, is what I did. I don't want a call from anyone with a low grade Darne clone, that says Abielle, Schmidt Frerés, Charlin, or boogity, boogity, boo, for that matter, on the opening lever, who has more than parts gun money into it, anytime in the near future, looking for a stock. Or barrels. Or a sliding breech.

Because I get those calls. And I hate it. Because someone always ends up disappointed. Hurt and disappointed if a dealer put the screws to them, which, happens more than I like, also. More than I hate not being able to tell him those interesting, but, as I pointed out, useless, to the task he is considering, facts that you are so hung up on, and can't provide, either.

In the event that the discussion continues on a civil note (past experience tells me it will disintegrate shortly, but, hope springs forth, you know) I would very much appreciate it if you could provide the Charlin patent pertaining to sling swivel attachment on plume barrel guns, which, you offered, but, haven't provided.

I'd like to see it. It sounds interesting.
Best,
Ted