doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Gauges and payloads

Nobody's wanting to stop anyone from shooting what they want, Lucky1. Fun is what it's all about, or should be, for all of us. I'm just trying to get a complete understanding of reasons why people shoot 3/4 oz. loads in a 12 ga. gun. I shoot 3/4 oz. loads, too, in 28s and .410s.

So far what I seem to see is that those who want to use 3/4 oz. loads in a 12 have convinced themselves that they break targets, or kill birds, as well as they NEED them to. And, that's fine. No problem with that. When you're picking butterbeans out of your garden you use a basket, not a combine.

I cannot be convinced that they will perform equal to a 1 oz. or 1 1/8 oz. load in ALL circumstances, and no one so far has tried to. However, if someone finds that they perform well enough in THEIR realm of circumstance, more power to them. All good.

I agree with you Stan, a 3/4 oz. load will never perform equal to a 1 oz. and never to a 1 1/8 oz. load but it is fun breaking targets with the 3/4 oz. load. IF others seeing you braking targets and know that you are using that load especially at Trap, they can't believe it.


Stan if you like to watch someone shoot a .410 really good watch Carlo Rizzini at Casa Rizzini TV. He has won a few championships shooting the .410. One gun that he shoots quite a bit is a Perazzi O/U with 78 cm barrels (30 1/2") full/full. He shoots a double sometimes.

Yes, I have watched several of his videos, David. They are very good. Parabola knows of my fondness for the .410 and posts links to new ones occasionally.

When I said 14 feet it was about three full gun lengths. These birds were not true crossers like station four at skeet but slightly incoming so they hit the field at 75-80 yards and never got closer than 65-70 yards. They were going to the exact same spot, a pond we kept in the field as a duck bank, to keep birds in the area. We never gunned the pond and let the birds remain undisturbed once they landed. They were consistently flying the same route over and over again and it was driving us nuts. As most duck hunters, who watch birds fly just out of range, we turned several ideas over about how we could shoot them.

Our lease stated we could only hunt from the fixed blinds. So moving closer was not an option. On average we would see 50 birds, mostly singles and pairs, fly the exact same pathway. Mike had a new to him, Ithaca Mag10 which he used with great effect on geese. So he loaded up some loads for ducks. His first seven or eight shots over a couple morning were clean misses. So he went back to the basics. Started out with about ten feet of perceived lead and added more ever shot. His first kill was on a bird which flew about 100 yards after the shot, then folded dead in the air. We could watch the ducks for about half a mile as the crossed the field beyond where we pass shot them. So I doubt many were well hit, that did not die before making it to the pond. He found the sweet spot of about 14’ or three long guns but also found he needed hold over to hit them. We figured the shot was falling about three feet, maybe four. If we just used proper frontal lead we rarely killed the bird, never really for me.

That farm is now filled with mega mansions and no shots have been fired on it in 30 plus years. What a shame but I still have those memories. Pass shooting birds is a great pastime which I wish I could experience again. But you need either luck or the perfect set of circumstances.

Thanks Jon, I never was much for duck hunting occasionally jump-shot some while wood cock hunting 30+ years ago. Where I lived originally in north New Jersey in the city had to hitch hike or my father drove us to hunt when I was in my early teens. Plenty of wood cock near this one river that had a lot of bottom land, high grass but then open land with trees and that is where the wood cock loved, you could see their droppings and bill marks looking for worms. Had a nice setter back then for bird hunting but didn't care much about retrieving them.

You and Stan shot a lot of skeet, what was your lead at the #4 station? Like I stated before this skeet shooter told me 4 feet, but I can't fathom 4 feet from the muzzle to target at 21 yards, I believe.

Late to the party here. I've been following this string with much interest. As far as targets go, I probably haven't shot enough of them (yet) to have a well-formed opinion, but on game I'm pretty adamant about using adequate loads. I've had several lighter (& even Damascus-barrelled) guns over the years that I've used to hunt in the uplands, and accordingly, I have been a bit sensitive about abusing them with overly-heavy loads. For a while, I was using both 7/8 & even 3/4-ounce RST loads on ruffed grouse (all this was in 16-gauge) and for the most part, these "lighter" loads seemed to work allright. But... after a few seasons of this I did start to notice the occasional unexplained "miss" or inexplicable loss of a bird (hit but kept going). Initially, I attributed it to my own faults (bad gun mount, poor focus, lifted-head, etc.) but that (well, most of it) largely went away when I went back to just shooting 1-ounce of shot in my 16-gauge. On targets and "for fun" I would think that the lighter loads are a nice option (& perhaps necessary in some cases), but on game I'm looking for that "blue-spark" of death and for all the usual reasons (but mostly for the quick and humane end of my prey species of choice).

12-gauge guns are in a different universe for me. They are the "standard" for lethality in a shotgun (at least in my book). For targets...God Bless You(!) & then shoot what works for you. But even with 12-bores, I don't scrimp on my loads for game. I now use an ounce of shot for hunting at a minimum, and even 1 1/8 ounce (if I can justify it). Now... I do have some new-to-me guns that might get started-out on 7/8-ounce loads (& maybe even 3/4 ounces at the range first) but once I've satisfied myself that they're up to the task-at-hand, they'll likely be digesting 1-ounce of shot regularly (on game) after that.

Edit: I've thought about this for a little bit (in the shower...where I do my best thinking) and maybe, just maybe, a 12-bore is "efficient" enough to maintain its lethality in lighter loads. I will be trying a few 7/8th ounce loads in that very light (6lb) English BLE (of my son's) this Fall. A worthy experiment, I should hope.

Lead depends on shooting style. I can break high four at least four different ways. Sustained lead where I start ahead of the bird, you pull out in front, get your proper lead and maintain it as you pull the trigger and continue that lead well past when the bird breaks. Swing through lead, where as you pull through the bird, pull the trigger as you accelerate the gun past the bird. I can spot shoot the bird without moving my gun. Just get the birds flight line and pull the trigger at a set distance before the bird reaches your gun, a timing shot. And last, my all time favorite way to shoot. I flinch, right before I am about to pull the trigger, scare my squad mate into hysterics, recover and track the bird down for a very late shot. Sometimes I use the flinch and spot shooting technique together if I am lucky enough to flinch in the right direction.

I am sure others have their own way to do it. Being able to shoot the bird multiple ways comes in handy. In the field I rarely get to use sustained lead but often a shorter lead with a pull away component. From a mathematical point you can compute the needed lead at station four high bird as 34-39” depending on bird launch speed. But most can not accurately judge 34-39” at 21 yards so it becomes personal. What do you see? I’ve known good shooters who only see daylight in front of birds and others who look like 5hey will ride a bird off into the sunset.

Thanks Jon I appreciate your time in telling me this. I mostly shoot trap where I live now, the one place that had a skeet field but I don't know what they are doing there now.

What would be the benefit of bickering about this?
There has been plenty already posted about why people use the payload they use.

I shoot .410 class in many tournaments every year following NSCA rules (2 1/2” and 1/2oz) whether required or not. I take limited game with the .410 because my first shot kill ratio is lower than shooting the 20 w/ 7/8 oz loads.

At my club (which has no presentations beyond 50 yds) the choice to shoot 3/4oz loads in 12 ga is either economy, recoil, or strength. Those are reasons I’ve heard people give, and see no reason not to believe them.

Lots of older guys say they can shoot more shooting the light loads.
I’m glad they come out to shoot. Whatever their chosen payload.
Certainly for me, cumulative recoil starts to effect me at about 150 rds or so.

I no longer do it, (FITASC requiring factory cartridges), but long ago I remember carefully analyzing the economics of shooting the light 12 gauge loads. Finding they took more powder to bring the light load up to speed, (can’t say what it’s like today) but l remember those light loads were actually more expensive per cartridge than the standard one oz.

Because both lead and powder are much more expensive today than they used to be, I don’t have a perfect knowledge of the economics any longer. Primers and wads being approximately the same cost across load sizes. Perhaps the economics have reversed. IDK.

For me, if you are getting out and enjoying the shooting sports, I care little about payload.

I probably see about 3 ft. on station 4, David, using pull away technique. I do know it's easy for me to outrun it with a little light .410, and miss ahead of it.