doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com A Spanish Shotgun for Ted

Ted,

You might enjoy this one

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tjf2gpgw1gzu9u6/Barrel_Bottom.jpg?dl=0

That's the bottom of a set of barrels on a Joaquín Fernández, model Olivia, produced some time between 1921 and 1929 (based on observable Eibar proof house markings).

12 gauge, sourced in France, or, at least double proofed there. Looks like some refinishing took most of the marks off the flats, I can’t see much.

A very nice gesture on your part, but, my problem, at the moment, is using the guns I’ve got. My sibling’s disabilities are consuming my life, at the moment.

But, Thanks!

Best,
Ted

Ted,

If I’ve given you the impression I’m offering you this gun that’s a miscommunication on my part. This one is not for sale 😊

This 12 gauge Joaquín Fernández (who went out of business before the start of the Spanish Civil War) has been around, and seen some hard times. The barrels, which may or may not be original, look to have been made by the original AyA. The shotgun was repaired for some unknown fault by Juan Antonio Belategui, (Armas Jabe) at some unknown point in time. The barrels (at least) spent some time in France and suffered some issue requiring re-proof while in France. It became a tax surrender gun in Spain circa 2010, was restored by Diego Godoy shortly thereafter, and I acquired it from a gun shop in Taradell, Barcelonia just after the restoration.

After acquisition I discovered the left barrel’s bore had a spot of significant pitting, and had the situation assessed by Briley. They advised me it would probably not be unsafe if used only with very light loads. As I restrict my gambling to casinos and poker rooms, I had Briley make up a couple of barrel tube sets (one in 20 gauge and one in .410). I’ve used it with the 20 gauge tube set installed to break some clays and enjoyed myself with it.

Whatever its faults may be, it’s a handsomely engraved gun. Here are some photos:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/chdvk06txece17g/Oliva_Left_Lock.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9nu9g7ucwyt2kg9/Right_Lock.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/sxjyj1i50eoicqw/Top_lever.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/h5ui5zb4gmokr95/Action_Bottom.jpg?dl=0

And some manufacturing data, shown faintly.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/miyte958zhnwysr/Barrel_Flats01.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/wytdf4bzqy8obd6/Barrel_Flats02.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9lje1f9ajyd7mfi/Water_Table02.jpg?dl=0

Kyrie,
Nice gun. I don’t believe the French marks are for reproof. Hard to tell from where I sit, for sure, but, my guess is proofed tubes, sourced in St. Etienne, and finished up elsewhere.

Use it in good health, my friend.

Best,
Ted

Kyrie, Joaquín Fernández was a good Spanish gunmaker. Diego Godoy was one of the best gunsmith here. And I supose you buy this gun in Alberto's gun shop.

Hope you enjoy It a lot!

The stamp on the upper (left) barrel is

-- "Depose" - "Registered trademark"
-- "Acier Comprime" - "Compressed Steel" - identical to Whitworth's name for his steel in England patent ran from 1865-1879 - maybe a couple of years added.

That stamp is identical to this one:


It was often used by Saint Etienne barrel maker Ronchard Cizeron. It may have been used by others in the late 19th - 1st 30 years of the 20th century as well since it appears quite often.
Here's an example....not the "6.5" (pre-1912)

Hello Campero,

You are completely correct; this shotgun was acquired at Armeria Taradell and Diego Godoy did outstanding work. I especially enjoyed seeing his double rifles. I still miss Don Diego, and mourn his passing.

Argo44,

Thank you for the information, and very fine images.

It’s a shotgun with a long and (for me) murky history. The barrels suggest a varied history.

The barrel tubes clearly have the St. Etienne stamp. I know very little about French proof and French proof house practices. Is this St. Etienne stamp a firing proof stamp? If so, would it indicate a preliminary or a definitive proof firing?

The barrel flats have the (faint, due to refinishing) stamps of the Eibar proof house, as applied during the process of proof in the period between 1921 and 1929.

The “P.V.” stamp on the barrel flats confuses me. While this is an Eibar proof house stamp in use during the mid-1920s, it is also the maker’s mark of Aguirre y Aranzabal (AyA). In its early years AyA was a supplier of barrels and completed locks to the shotgun makers and provided these parts with either the stamp P.V. (early) or AyA (later).
My initial thought was the P.V. stamp sourced to barrels to AyA, but after more thought I’m inclined to think a connection to AyA is unlikely and to assume the P.V. stamp is just another Eibar proof house stamp.

All of this creates some uncertainty for me as to whether the barrels are original or a replacement. I lean toward original but would not swear to it.

The origin and purpose of the JABE stamp is straightforward. When a Spanish shotgun maker performed a maintenance repair on a shotgun made by some other maker the repairing gun maker would usually apply his maker’s mark just as we see it here.

The water table stamps are also straightforward. We have the stamp indicating submission to the Eibar proof house, a definitive firing proof stamp, stamps indicating two additional supplementary tests with smokeless powder, The stamp indicating a 12-gauge firearm, the maker’s mark (J.F.) and trademark of Joaquín Fernández, and the serial number.

Kyrie,
My read of the proof marks leads me to believe that those were finished barrels, proofed at 16,353psi, and proofed at 18.2, typical 12 gauge bore measurement, then, and, now, in St. Etienne. I think that particular French proof mark was more common before the revisions to French proof law in 1923, and I’d guess it predates that year. Had somebody requested proofed tubes, we would see the letters “N.A.” between the proof marks and the name St. Etienne, pretty much meaning “Not Assembled”. Being a pre Spanish civil war gun, it is possible that a gunmaker or talented outworker found himself with a set of tubes, and a good gun missing tubes, and built up a gun for some butter and egg money, maybe submitting it for proof in Spain once it was completed. Or, it could have come that way from the builder. Or, something else.
I’d sure like to know what, and how it happened. But, I don’t know. I say that about a lot of old guns, however. Most of the time, I never find out for sure what the circumstances were.

Looks to be a fine, old, gun

Best,
Ted