doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Load Data

From 1897-1903 the Belgian makers kindly told us exactly what load, and powder, to use

12g Manufacture Liegeoise likely proved with Mullerite (stylized lion over M) for a service load of 2.70 grams POUDRE = 41.67 grains = 3 Dr. Eq. (42 grains) Bulk Smokeless Powder.
"E.C." No. 1 & "Schultze" were also 42 gr. = 3 Dr. Eq.
36 grams PLOMBE = 1 1/4 oz. Shot



and for us dumb Americans even made it simple; a William Read & Sons tradename gun



The Belgian Proof House specified service loads in 1906



12g - about 1 1/4 oz. / 3 1/4 Dram Eq. (1220 fps).
(12g 5.8 grams = 89.5 grains = 3 1/4 Dram)
16g - about 1 oz. / 2 1/2 Dram Eq. (1165 fps).
20g - about 7/8 oz. / 2 1/4 Dram Eq. (1155 fps).

After the proof house revisions of 1924, a Certificat d'epreuve was issued and specified pressure, not the shot or powder:
"The pressure developed, measured by crusher type device , lower or equal to 600 kg per square centimeter for sizes 16, 12, 10, 8 & 4; 670 kg pounds per square centimeter for sizes 20, 24 and smaller."
600 kg/cm2 = 8534 psi SERVICE pressure;
670 kg/cm2 = 9530 psi SERVICE pressure
+ 10-14% by piezoelectric transducer measurement.
20 g was PROVED at 1000 kg/cm2 = 14,223 psi
12g PROVED at 900 kg/cm2 = 12,801 psi
Transducer numbers for 20g would be close to 15,500 psi; 12g about 14,000 psi

I don't know if any maker's catalogs thereafter included load recommendations

With the introduction of Bulk and (slightly later) Dense Smokeless Powders, the U.S. gun, shell and powder makers provided load recommendations, in catalogs and some on hang tags

From March 1893 U.M.C. catalog “Smokeless” & “Trap” Loaded Shells, with powder equivalents. Courtesy of Researcher



DuPont Standard Loads immediately after WWI



c. 1900 Remington Hang Tag also courtesy of Researcher



1914 A.H. Fox catalog courtesy of Researcher



Standard loads found on L.C. Smith hang tags:
12 gauge
3 dram 1 1/4 oz. shot (1887 - about 1920)
3 dram 1 1/8 oz. shot (after 1920)
16 gauge 2 1/2 dram 1 oz. shot (introduced 1896)
20 gauge 2 1/4 dram 7/8 oz. shot (introduced 1907)

I haven't seen a Hunter Arms hang tag after the 20s specifying the standard loads

This is a Reilly hang tag from 1893 (probably Gene's)



British service charges with the various powders after the 1896 Proof House revisions



An 1896 Lancaster specifying “E.C.” (No. 1) 42 grains = 3 Dram with MAXm. 1 1/8 oz. shot



I don't think this help continued after the 1904 Proof House revisions

This is the French Banc d'Epreuve Officielle
https://en.calameo.com/read/0054478584946e91a2418



Load recommendations in the Verney-Carron 1914 catalog
https://en.calameo.com/read/0054478584946e91a2418

Italian proof certificate



I don't know if Beretta catalogs specified loads

Drew,

Thank you – all very interesting.

Also interesting (to me, anyway) that all this pretty much predates the formalization of communication between the separate arms and separate ammunition manufactures in the 1920s by the founding of C.I.P. and SAMMI.

I wonder what role, if any, was played by the transition from black powder to nitro propellants in the fading away of load recommendations. I’m smelling a significant connection here.

Best,

Kyrie

I think you are correct Kyrie.

The best answer to "What load should I use in my vintage double?" is "What loads did the maker recommend?"
It was alot easier when the makers provided those recommendations, and the shell makers provided pressure data

And this was probably part of the problem; too many choices Not many of those powders were around after WWI

42 grain = 3 Dram Equivalent Bulk Powders
“E.C.” No. 1
“Schultze”
DuPont Bulk (40 gr.)
Curtis & Harvey “Amberite” (40 gr. on introduction - later 42 gr.)
Sporting Smokeless Powder Syn., Ltd “Cannonite Shot-gun”
Smokeless Powder Co. “S.S.” (Smokeless Shot-gun) (43 grains)
Cooppal & Co. “Cooppal’s No. 1”
Louis Muller & Cie S.A. “Mullerite No. 1”
United States Smokeless Powder Co. “Gold Dust”
Dynamit Nobel’s Troisdorf Powder Co. “Troisdorf” (41.5 grains)
American Wood Powder
“J.B.” Powder

36 Grain = 3 Dram Equivalent Bulk Powders
New DuPont Bulk (37 grains)
Laflin & Rand Bulk (37 grains)
Hazard Powder Co. “Blue Ribbon” (37 grains)
“E.C.” No. 2 (Improved)
“New Schultze”

33 Grain = 3 Dram Equivalent Bulk Powders
“New E.C. (Improved) No. 3” (introduced in U.S. in 1904)
Curtis’s & Harvey “Diamond Smokeless” (1903)
Red Star (New Explosives Co., Stowmarket)
Walsrode Smokeless & Waterproof Gun Powder Co. “Walsrode Gray”
Louis Muller & Cie S.A. “Mullerite No. 2”
Nobel’s Explosive Co. “Empire”
“Cooppal’s No. 2” (30 grains = 3 Dr. Eq.)

Poudre Sans Fumé J - 15.8 grains/dram = 47.4 grains = 3 Dr. Eq.
Poudre M - 12.76 grains/dram = 38.3 grains = 3 Dr. Eq.
Poudre T - 11.5 grains/dram = 34.5 grains = 3 Dr. Eq.

For what it is worth, only French proof powder T was smokeless. PM, PJ, and PS were semi-smokeless powders. 1900 was when powder T came into use, and the others faded away as the century progressed.

The French abandoned Damascus and black powder, along with semi smokeless powder, a long time before most other gunmakes.

Best,
Ted

And at present we have too many powders from multiple countries available for hand loaders. Not to mention the propensity of propellant makers to update any given named canister propellant to significantly change the way it performs over time. But I suppose that keeps the people who publish hand loading data books busy. What edition is Lyman up to now? Last time I looked it was something like the fifty-first edition.

Still, I don’t miss the good-old-days of 1910 :-)

And were first to develop smokeless propellants in what, something like 1884?