doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Question on transfers

No but an FFL is required to ascertain the identity of his transferor. I seen cases where the transferor had no driver license and substituted his picture ID VA card...Geo

According to the federal law . . .



In the text above, "license number" presumably refers to FFL license number (FFLs don't have to record the address of an FFL if they record the FFL license number).

So, no, the law does not require FFLs to obtain a copy of the seller's drivers license. All that is required is that the FFL records the name and address of the person providing the firearm. Most FFLs do insist on a driver's license copy, however.

Remember, the receiving FFL is not required to process the transfer at all. He/she can send the gun back or refuse to complete the transfer until requested documentation is supplied. It's his shop, his license, so his rules are the ones that matter. If he says he won't do a transfer without a driver's license copy then that's the deal. Don't like it? Find another dealer to do your transfer.

The shipper if an ffl dealer it is required to have a copy of the ffl that they are shipping to

The receiving dealer is not required by law to need an ffl from the shipper
However, as a courtesy most dealers like to have a copy of the shippers ffl

If you are an individual and sending a gun out of state you must verify that the receiver is licensed

John Boyd

There is no requirement that either FFL RETAINS any license copy, however. Once you record the name and license number of the other FFL in your A&D book you can feed his license copy directly to the shredder. (Or you could just look him up on EZ Check and swear on John Browning's grave that you saw a certified copy. Nobody is going to know the difference.)




And they can verify the status of the FFL by using EZ Check.

Ever heard the saying "my way or the highway"?

Sometimes the gain ain't worth the pain ......... sometimes it is.

SRH

In every ATF compliance check I ever had in the 48yrs of having an 01FFL,, every Disposition in the log book had to be accompanied by a 4473 of the transfer, or a valid hard copy of the FFL that the gun was transfered to.


Each and every one of either of those documents had to be present and accounted for (and valid and properly filled out, and on and on) for each transaction in the log book since the last Compliance check and sign off by the ATF Agent at that time.

I got checked at least once every 3 yr license cycle. Sometimes more.

Yes you can check 01FFl #'s for valid in EZ Check. That's great. It's another useful way to check the validity of the document.

So someone hands you a valid FFL (EZ Check says so) and you transfer the gun to them. Maybe the person who handed you the FFL copy had no connection the FFL.
A copy of the lic and a business card from the stack at the register?

There's a dozen different scam senarios that be hatched to use a fake FFL or use a valid one by an unauthorized person.
You do your best as as a business owner and FFL to avoid being caught up in any of it just like avoiding other scams(bad checks)

But if kids can print $20's at home and pass them at the local Stop & Rob,,FFL's can certainly be printed with valid looking info and changed names and addresses.

...and you won't find 03 C&R FFL's in EZ-Check.
Another reason to deny a C&R a sale I guess.

You do your best as a Dealer to verify the other person for who they portray themselves to be. Thats all you can do.
You don't charge the person with a crime that is stuck with a bad check because the person that passed it showed fake ID.
That they asked for ID is all that is required.
Govt issued picture ID that is currently valid is what is demanded in the law.

You have no real way of verifying other than looking at the documents presented (FFL copy, signitures, D/Lic, ect)
..if the check is bad,,the ID is probably fake too.

4473s, yes, but not paper copies of FFLs.

I only had two inspections in my eight years so I should probably defer to your superior experience, but I won�t. I was never asked to produce license copies. You know why? Because there�s no requirement to retain physical copies of FFLs. The only thing required for an FFL transfer is that you record the name and license number. Prove me wrong. Cite a federal regulation or ATF advisory/rule that says otherwise.

I don�t doubt that you stored all that paper, but you weren�t required to do so.

Heck, in a routine inspection, dispositions more than one year old are not examined in any way. They verify that there are guns present corresponding to each open bound book entry and skim through one year�s worth of 4473 forms. A closed entry older than a year might as well not exist. They sure don�t take the time to match up paper FFL copies.

Bladeeswitcher is correct. Once you record the ffls name, address and license number you can dispose of the ffl


John Boyd
Quality Arms

"...Heck, in a routine inspection, dispositions more than one year old are not examined in any way. They verify that there are guns present corresponding to each open bound book entry and skim through one year�s worth of 4473 forms. A closed entry older than a year might as well not exist. They sure don�t take the time to match up paper FFL copies...."


Must depend on where the ATF Compliance Agents work out of.

This's how it went:
They always at the end of a Compliance check boldly draw a line in the book and signed and dated it. Signified the book was 'OK' I guess up to that point.
The next compl check took up where the last sign off was entered.
It could have been 3yrs ago,,or a yr ago.

Any open entrys (these can go back to the beginning of the book, not just the last sign off), the gun would have to be presented.
Verified by make, modl, ser# & cal.

Transactions since the last sign off:
Present the 4473 of the transaction
OR
The FFL copy where it went to.
The paper FFL copy had to be presented. Must have a valid date at the time of transaction of course. Legible, ect, ect.
A simple Name & FFL # of the disposition in the Log Book was never acceptable. Nor was a reference to an EZ Check at the time.

On at least one occasion, not so many yrs back, I could not come up with a copy of a certain customers FFL from my file at that moment.
The Agent told me to email him a copy of it if I did indeed find it within the next couple of days,,or,,if I did not to secure a new copy from the FFL (still in biz) and email that copy to him....AND I would not be in violation.

Other FFL's that I know and have known have had similar experience. Standard practice to keep the FFL copys to show at Compliance checks and most everyone misplaces one sometime if you're in business long enough.
Might just be a NY thing but that's how it was handled.

Closed entrys:
All were checked that 'closed' anytime after that last ATF Compliance check date. (4473 or FFL copy)
Those may be way earlier/ pages earlier in the book than that lined, signed and dated entry of course.
The gun may have been in the book earlier and disposed of now.
So they search back through the Log Book looking for Disposition dates.

'One year' in the Log Book means nothing with regard to Disposition Dates as those Disp Dates are entered on the same line as the orig entry.

An entry (Acquisition Date) runs as the calendar does.
But Disposition can occur any time there after,,even yrs after.
You have to search for the latter ,,and they did.

"Skim through 4473's" ??
It took both Agents at one check into a 10 minute serious discussion huddle along with a NYSP Captain (who was along for the Check to peak at the records under the guise of looking at my NYS Pistol Dealer book).
The issue?,,on one 4473 (from years earlier,,10yrs earlier IIRC)
I had started to write the gun mfg'r down (Smith & Wesson) and I didn't finish the Wesson part.
I had printed 'Wess'.
Distracted, I don't know. But this obvious serious violation caused a big challenge to crime fighting and 'I could be sited for it'.

But after the secret meeting was over it was decided that I would be allowed, in their presence to complete the entry. The 2 Agents would initial and date the fix-er-up on the elderly 4473.

...and don't ever have dyslexia and have an FFL. It's not hardly allowed. But that's another story.

(...The ATF bringing the NYSP along on compliance checks was challenged by the NRA and the practice stopped.)

So that's what I've experienced.
I gave up the FFL this past yr. Sent all the stuff to the big Warehouse down South somewhere.
Rules, Regs and practices change.

It was fun, kind of hated to give it up. But new laws and restrictions and other issues have dampened that.

Good luck with your FFL business. Have fun!
-Dazzle 'em with paper work-

Kutter, I don't know whether you're recalling inspection practices from many years past or whether the ATF singled your operation out for additional scrutiny, but current ATF practice is to look at just 12 months of 4473 forms.

Don't take my word for it. Recently, the online publication Ammoland obtained a copy of the ATF's Industry Operations Manual through a Freedom of Information request. THis is the guidebook that inspectors follow when doing FFL visits -- the BIBLE of ATF inspections. You can see a copy of the manual here:

ATF Firearms Industry Operations Manual PDF

If you refer to page 50, section e, item 1, it clearly states that inspectors are to "Review 100% of the ATF Form 4473 completed during the 12 month review period . . . "

I would also refer you to the top of page thirty-nine: -- "Unless otherwise directed, the period of review will be the 12 month period immediately preceding the start of the inspection."

Also, on page 134, the manual describes the information that is supposed to be in the inspector's report of a FFL visit. In that it says: -- "ATF Forms 4473 on file (last 12 months) � Total number of ATF Forms 4473 on file for the licensee in the 12 months immediately preceding the inspection . . . "

(Based on the official manual, it appears that the ATF tries to maintain the fiction that inspections occur annually . . . )


Finally, to settle the question of whether FFL's are required to keep physical copies of licenses provided by other FFLs, I would refer you to page 54: where it clearly states - NOTE: Regulations do not require the licensee to maintain the certified copies of FFLs, but many licensees choose to do so.