doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com A.G. Spalding? 10 Gauge Sidelock

Hi all, first time posting in about 5 years. Recently purchased my first 10 gauge shotgun after posting a wanted ad on a used gun website. They seldom pop up for sale in Australia so this was the only way to find one.
The gun I purchased is an A.G Spalding & Bros sidelock. The gun is in great original condition (apart from some interesting dowel repair work on the stock which is pictured) with plenty of finish on the barrels and colour case hardening to the action. has 29 & 1/2" damascus barrels with excellent bores and the action is extremely tight. I doubt if it has been through 500 cartridges in its entire shooting life.

The only problems I am having with the gun is finding information on the Spalding company selling or retailing firearms. I believe the gun may have been made by JP Clabrough in Birmingham while they were exporting guns to San Francisco and then retailed by Spalding Bros in Chicago. It is marked 'NOT FOR BALL" placing it pre 1887 and has 'R & S PATENT 397' stamped on the action. Serial no. is 107

Any information someone might have on the gun would me much appreciated as I can't seem to find anything!

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The only patent 397 that I can find is one dated 29/01/1881 by J.T & J Rogers for drop down action cocked by the fall of the barrels but that doesn't quite explain the R & S. It looks to be in excellent order and I think the 500 rounds fired to be an over estimate as it looks little used to me. Lagopus�..

Nice looking gun...Original finish no.

Metal and wood has been redone at some point in its life. Those circular inserts I'd guess to stop cracks weren't done at the factory.

Judging by metal versus wood condition I'd think the gun had been stored in a really hot dry environment.

A.G. Spalding & Bros. 1895 Advert

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

The dipped locks seem to resemble those of a Rigby, but that is about as far as it goes. Seems J.P. Clabrough also used the Roger's action per this "Shooting Sportsman' article:

"By the 1880s the modern form of the double gun had emerged, and J.P. Clabrough understood that he needed a sidelock-based action. In 1881 J.T & J. Rogers were granted British Patent No. 397 for a hammerless, detachable, barrel-actuated back-action lock. (The Rogers Brothers were Brits who described themselves as �gunmakers,� although Crudgington and Baker described them as �action filers� in The British Shotgun, Volume Two.) On May 9, 1882, they were granted US Patent No. 257764 for the same design and assigned it to Clabrough. It was this design that Clabrough employed to compete against his major rivals in the US: British makers C.G. Bonehill, W&C Scott, and Greener. Not until later in the decade would US gunmakers make their presence felt in the hammerless market."

https://shootingsportsman.com/j-p-clabrough/

See the last hammerless image w/ some odd gold inlay.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

"My hammerless side lock non-ejector Clabrough is SN 4230. It carries post 1887 proof marks, were the hammerless guns SN'd in a different sequence from the hammer guns. This one is marked J P Clabrough & Bros London Fine Damascus on the rib & J P Clabrough & Bros on both lockplates.
Proof marks on the barrel are Birmingham & have the 12C in diamond for chamber, 12 (for bore) on both barrels & the word Choke on each barrel which should put it at least as late as 1887. It has double underbolts with an un-bolted doll's head. Per the above mentioned 1895/96 catalog this would be the #1 (Field) grade with a catalog price of $50.00 at that point. Has 28" barrels with a weight of 6lb 14 oz with about a � choke in both barrels. Some years back I hunted it rather extensively for a few seasons with some 1 oz loads @ about 8K psi of either #8 or #6 shot depending upon what I was hunting that day. Using #8 for quail or woodcock & #6 for Beagle chased Cottontails it was pure poison. It fits me to near perfection & I shot it as well or better than any other shotgun I have ever used.
Even though it was Clabrough's bottom of the Line I have found it to be very well made. It is still on Face & bolts up tightly even though there is no wear compensation to the bolts, the top lever always stops at center with the barrels on or off. There is no hold over latch for the top lever so it also returns to center when the gun is opened with barrels intact. This gun along with another or so I have owned over the years with non-compensating bolts which likewise bolted up tight has caused me to question if the extra friction as the tapered bolts seat do not perhaps induce as much (or More) wear as they compensate for.
All in all I have found this old Clabrough to be a reliable & capable gun. The locks incidentally on this gun are back action even though the plates resemble a bar action.
Many many years ago, probably at least 40 years, at a gun show in Nashville TN I saw an 8 gauge hammerless Clabrough.

PS;
I forgot to add, on the left action flat of this hammerless are the following marks. Near the left edge is a diamond, with the point starting near the breech & the long axis running lengthwise down the bar. This diamond was not fully stamped. What I can make out inside is the word Patent starting near the point next to the breech. Cannot make out anything in the upper half of the diamond. to the right & slightly lower is the small numbers 81. Then below this centered on the lower point is the number 397.
Then near the slots for the barrel lumps, also reading from the breech outward is stamped; Makers Patent Action 257764. This is a US patent issued May 9, 1882 to J T & J Rogers of Birmingham Eng for a Hammerless Cocking Mechanism. I have no idea of the connection between the Roger's & J P Clabrough."

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=486872&page=2

2-piper:

Does the Clabrough of which are you are a custodian resemble the subject longarm?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Indeed it does. The back-action lock plate has the same identical shape & all pin locations appear to be identical. Mine has not quite as much coverage of the engraving but does have a pair of birds in an oval at the rear of each plate. The lettering on the action flats is read in opposite direction from this one IE stock to left rather than right. The diamond with the 397 in it is on left flat just in front of the standing breech. It does not have the "No" in front of the 397, in fact, the word patent withe final T just over the 9 in the 397. The makers patent action 257764 is also on the left action flat & starts next to the breech continuing to the end of the flat, just above the center slot for the barrel lugs when held stock to left with flats facing you. Wish I could read whatever else was supposed to be in that diamond, but that's it. This action certainly looks identical to my J P Clabrough & Bros though.

Interestingly to read the top rib markings on the barrel the muzzles are held to the left opposite the action flat marks.SN, Proof marks etc on barrel flats & lower barrel are read with the muzzle to right so to go from top to bottom the barrel has to be flipped end to end rather than just rolled over.

My proof marks are post-1887 & say choke. I suspect this is a late 1890s gun, but don't have definitive proof of age. As I have stated on several occasions I have done some very good shooting "For Me" on quail, woodcock & rabbit with this gun using 1 oz of #8 & #6 shot at around 1150 fps @ about 8K PSI, according to the loading manual.

Two or three things worth mentioning, The bolts do not have built-in wear compensation & the top lever always stops At Center. It is however still tight & on face. The top lever does not have a latch over, so lever returns to center when the gun is opened or taken down. The bolt is cammed back by the front barrel lug upon closing. Even though it has an automatic safety with the gun open the safety can be pushed forward & triggers pulled & the hammers can be let down easily. "IF" however you snap the forend off with the hammers Down its a Bear to get it back together, locks need to be cocked to put the forend on.

Maybe one of these days I'll get around to taking some pictures & posting them.

Miller, if you'll forward the images to me, I'll gladly post them. I have trudged thru the bowels of the internet but still cannot develop an understanding of the "R & S Patent 397" stamp. One lead may be that it was sold to a S partner like a Scott?????


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Raimey;
Thanks, but I can post the pictures, just haven't taken any so have none at present to post. Unfortunately, I cannot say for certain the R&S was on my gun but the patent 397 definitely is as well as the "makers patent action 257764".


Very interesting article that STEVE HELSLEY & ROGER SANGER wrote for Shooting Sportsman mag. All these years I have been pronouncing my gun as a "Clay-Bro" rather than a "Clay-Burro", got to learn to say it properly. I can easily see that would have been the pronunciation before John Plumb dropped the Y & first O from the spelling. Would appear, though he changed the spelling he did not change the pronunciation.

I would have expected the 397 to be a Patent Use number, That was commonly done. But if the R and S and patent 397 shows up on two guns, then my expectation is not correct.