May
S M T W T F S
1 2 3 4
5 6 7 8 9 10 11
12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
26 27 28 29 30 31
Who's Online Now
4 members (SKB, Jtplumb, KY Jon, 1 invisible), 1,083 guests, and 1 robot.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums10
Topics38,502
Posts545,511
Members14,414
Most Online1,344
Apr 29th, 2024
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 3 of 4 1 2 3 4
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 10
Boxlock
Offline
Boxlock

Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 10
Keith:
I apologize, in advance, for the question - but I need your help: I'm new to the forum and can't figure out how to post pictures. Saw this great photo you added to your recent post and hoped you could tell me what I'm missing. Thanks!

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,344
Likes: 390
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,344
Likes: 390
Muddy22, I'll send you a PM rather than take this thread way off-topic like Jagermeister has once again attempted to do.

But you, being new here, will come to realize that Jagermeister is one of our internet trolls and fakes. He doesn't even own any doubles, yet has thousands of posts here... pretending to be an expert when he is nothing but a pathetic tire-kicker.


A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.

Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 10
Boxlock
Offline
Boxlock

Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 10
Thanks - and sorry again for the thread interruption.

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,478
Likes: 16
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,478
Likes: 16
I believe that some barrels on high end Brit ("Best") guns are polished to a high degree and then burnished to close up the pores in the steel before bluing. This accounts,I think, for the high gloss barrel finishes.


C Man
Life is short
Quit your job.
Turn off the TV.
Go outside and play.
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,478
Likes: 16
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,478
Likes: 16
double post. Sorry.

Last edited by Chukarman; 03/13/18 09:55 PM.

C Man
Life is short
Quit your job.
Turn off the TV.
Go outside and play.
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 925
Likes: 253
Sidelock
**
OP Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: May 2008
Posts: 925
Likes: 253
Originally Posted By: Chukarman
I believe that some barrels on high end Brit ("Best") guns are polished to a high degree and then burnished to close up the pores in the steel before bluing. This accounts,I think, for the high gloss barrel finishes.


Chukarman;

Interesting thought on burnishing. Likely very difficult to burnish long tubes, however I do not know what I do not know. Have you encountered any evidence to suggest burnishing?

Along the lines of the comments of this post, I would like to add to the thoughts of this discussion the following: (1) Desmond Mills, the ex-Purdey English gunsmith and co-author of "Amateur Gunsmith" has a "one liner" in his book that shotgun barrels should be polished to the point of appearing as if they are chrome plated. (2) In Donald Dallas book of the history of David McKay Brown, gun & riflemakers of Scotland, David says that in his shop after a set of barrels are blacked, they are then covered with soot via a gunmakers smoking pot and that the soot is used as an polishing abrasive to hand polish the barrels to the desired luster.

I have not seen one of McKay Brown's double guns or doubles rifles in person, but viewing photos of them in Dallas' book they do not appear to be of the gloss/luster that one sees of new Purdey or Holland guns. Brown's guns and rifles are blacked in-house at his shop.

A thought that I have about the blacking of barrels that have been highly polished as described by Desmond Mills is the carding away of the rust after each boiling cycle of the blacking process. Some and maybe many American barrel blackers use the Grobet (a tool maker to the jewelers) very fine wire 6 inch diameter jewelers wire wheel to card away the rust. It occurs to me that this revolving wire wheel,even at low RPM, could produce unintended results of dulling much of the finely polish barrel, and that maybe 0000 to 000000 steel wool should be used to card away the rust.

Secondly, Angier states in his 1936 book that weaker (less aggresive) browning/blacking solutions produce finer grain and glossier finish than do stronger solutions. A couple of years back I polished away the surface of a recently blacked barrel, just enough polishing away to where the barrel surface could be examined under my engraving microscope. This barrel had been final polished with 1000 grit prior to blacking. Upon examination under the microscope the surface looked like surface of the moon--just a mass of pits. Thinking about this pitted surface afterwards, it occurred to me that not only weaker blacking solutions, but also shorter rusting periods could produce less deep pits during the barrel rusting. (noting that the deeper the surface pits the less light is reflected back thereby making the surface seem duller). Angier seems to suggest that with very high humidity, say 80-90%, very very short rusting cycles can be used maybe 1 hour to 1.5 hours. Under this same thought process it seems likely that once a certain number of rusting and boiling cycles have accomplished that further rusting and boiling cycles will produce no better results and maybe even produce negative results as to appearance of the final finish.

Lastly, the late English gunsmith, Jack Rowe thought that Willi Barthold, the German master gunsmith and German professor of gunsmithing, was the greatest gunsmith who had lived in the last 100 years. Barthold's German language gunsmithing textbook:
"JAGDWAFFENKUNDE" (1969 VEB VERLAG TECHNIK, BERLIN) was recommended to me by Jack (which I bought). Jack said that when he emigrated to America that he could not find anyone in the USA who could produce barrel blacking to the standard that Jack was desired and received from the barrel blackers in England. Jack further said that he contacted a gunsmith that he knew in California (formerly UK gunsmith) and gave that gunsmith Willi Barthold's barrel blacking formula (from the textbook) and that with some minor adjustment the California gunsmith blacked barrels to the standard that Jack required. Willi Barthold's blacking formula turns out to be the same formula that Angier lists as Swiss Black at the top of page 88 (C. 17) of his book. The formula contains only Copper Sulphate, Ferrous Sulphate, Ferric Chloride, distilled water and Alcohol. During several conversations that Jack and I had about gunmaking, he stated his belief that barrel blacking solutions that contained nitric acid could not produce gloss finish barrels. I do not know if this is correct as I had not tried to see if that was the case.


Last edited by bushveld; 03/14/18 03:02 PM.
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,478
Likes: 16
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,478
Likes: 16
Bushvelt - -

The gunsmith and finisher that I use here in California told me that he sometimes burnishes to get a correct'Brit type' finish. I have never asked him what formula(s) he uses, but I know that he applies a blue/black finish that he feels is appropriate for the type and make of the gun he is restoring. He is meticulous in restoring older guns and does many high end guns. He can reproduce the highly glossy 'plum black' finish often seen on guns like my Dickson.

I learn a lot every time I visit his shop. He always seens to have a backlog of years of work. I am grateful that I do not always go to the end of the line.


C Man
Life is short
Quit your job.
Turn off the TV.
Go outside and play.
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,272
Likes: 525
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,272
Likes: 525
None of the barrels Ive seen finished by Johnsons are plum black. I have no idea what that is actually, other than bluing/blacking that has aged without being oiled properly....or in some cases with hot bluing...that part hasnt been in the solution long enough...or it was in too long...or the solution is too old, etc.

There is a guy in Wisconsin that says he can replicate best English type blacking...Ive never seen his work, Ill post a link just for reference.
http://www.rgsrestorations.com

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,478
Likes: 16
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,478
Likes: 16
Quote:
None of the barrels Ive seen finished by Johnsons are plum black. I have no idea what that is actually, other than bluing/blacking that has aged without being oiled properly....or in some cases with hot bluing...that part hasnt been in the solution long enough...or it was in too long...or the solution is too old, etc.


Maybe you could post photo of 'Johnson blacking' that you use as your standard of excellence? From a verbal description it is impossible to know exactly what it looks like.

I have an Atkin SLE spring opener made in 1930, maybe its original barrels have the finish you describe?

Here is an example of the blacking on the barrels of the Dickson... done by the makers:



C Man
Life is short
Quit your job.
Turn off the TV.
Go outside and play.
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,344
Likes: 390
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,344
Likes: 390
Interesting link Dustin. It looks like they do some nice work, even if all of it isn't exactly the way some of the guns pictured were done originally. Something that stands out is the pricing difference between standard rust bluing for doubles at $325.00 and and Best English Blacking at $850.00.

That is undoubtedly a reflection of the additional time and labor involved in careful polishing to a high degree of polish, and a much greater number of rusting and carding cycles. The cost of the chemicals is negligible compared to the hours of hand labor involved. And that is certainly the reason that our beloved American field grade guns didn't leave the factory with high gloss finishes.

I also have to agree with you about "plum black" finishes. The transition from fresh dark blue-black to what we politely call patina, if we are selling a gun, is a very gradual and subtle change at first. I'm hoping to find some time this summer to experiment more with reactivating the rust (patina) on some very evenly patina'd barrels, and then boiling and carding only once or twice without resorting to totally removing the original finish which has turned plum brown, and starting over from scratch.


A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.

Page 3 of 4 1 2 3 4

Link Copied to Clipboard

doublegunshop.com home | Welcome | Sponsors & Advertisers | DoubleGun Rack | Doublegun Book Rack

Order or request info | Other Useful Information

Updated every minute of everyday!


Copyright (c) 1993 - 2024 doublegunshop.com. All rights reserved. doublegunshop.com - Bloomfield, NY 14469. USA These materials are provided by doublegunshop.com as a service to its customers and may be used for informational purposes only. doublegunshop.com assumes no responsibility for errors or omissions in these materials. THESE MATERIALS ARE PROVIDED "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANT-ABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR NON-INFRINGEMENT. doublegunshop.com further does not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials. doublegunshop.com shall not be liable for any special, indirect, incidental, or consequential damages, including without limitation, lost revenues or lost profits, which may result from the use of these materials. doublegunshop.com may make changes to these materials, or to the products described therein, at any time without notice. doublegunshop.com makes no commitment to update the information contained herein. This is a public un-moderated forum participate at your own risk.

Note: The posting of Copyrighted material on this forum is prohibited without prior written consent of the Copyright holder. For specifics on Copyright Law and restrictions refer to: http://www.copyright.gov/laws/ - doublegunshop.com will not monitor nor will they be held liable for copyright violations presented on the BBS which is an open and un-moderated public forum.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.0.33-0+deb9u11+hw1 Page Time: 0.085s Queries: 35 (0.054s) Memory: 0.8626 MB (Peak: 1.8991 MB) Data Comp: Off Server Time: 2024-05-05 19:39:20 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS