doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Just acquired an interesting French double

Ken, the French don't list the pressure of service loads for their guns. Strictly proof pressure. In the case of this gun, it carries the double St. Etienne proofmark--16,500 psi, which is well above the current CIP standard proof. Doubt I'll shoot 1 oz loads in it, given the gun's weight. RST makes 3/4 oz loads. They also offer a 15/16oz load at a velocity of 1125 fps. Likely tolerable in that gun, although certainly for targets I'll stick with 3/4. If I can run an occasional straight with a 28ga or with a 20ga shooting 3/4 oz reloads, I'm sure 3/4 will be plenty out of a 12.

The gun will likely be strictly for grouse and woodcock. Maybe quail. Probably OK for preserve chukars as well. Don't intend to shoot pheasants with it. Definitely not wild ones!

Thanks, Argo. We've discussed this in the past, but there was indeed a "Helice system". Letter I received from M. Claude Verney-Carron, July 2002:

"Helice was the name of the locking system patented by my great grandfather Jean Verney-Carron at the beginning of the 20th century. When the patent expired and fell in the public field, a lot of gun makers from St. Etienne adopted the system for their own use." However, V-C did not use the name "Helice" on their guns. But "Helice Grip" and "HelicoBloc" were two names they did use. In the case of this gun, it's the top lever with the stop on the left hand side and the 3rd fastener which leads me to believe that it is yet another gun that uses the Helice locking mechanism--which is described and shown very clearly in my 1922 V-C catalog.

Well, Larry, Neltir and many others say that VC never filed a patent under the name "Helice" and that his patent under the name "Helicobloc," etc. merely simplified Webley's triple-lock and added a fourth lock. Thus, I don't think Helice was ever actually defined in spite of VC's claim above. So what is a "Helice system". - can it be defined? Is there a common denominator other than the helical closing key all center break shotguns use? What VC did do for sure was popularize the ubiquitous Fench engraving on the Key. Anyway, we can agree to disagree. Here it Neltir's post again roughly translated:

Here is a translation of his post just for the record - the translation is not literal but I've tried to make it in understandable English so it catches the sense of the original.

Bonsoir a tous , je me permet d'intervenir sur ce post que j'ai parcouru avec beaucoup d'attention et de ....rires parfois !

Good morning everybody. Permit me to intrude in this thread that I have followed with great interest and with�.uproarious laughter

Deja je vais me permettre de dire rendons a H�lice ce qui est a lui !!!

Please permit me to relate what exactly is a Helice

En effet ,j'ai lu que Verney Carron �tait l'inventeur du fusil H�lice ::: que le fusil h�lice �tait une marque de fusils lisses :::: que h�lice �tait ��

I have read that Verney Carron was the inventor of the �Helice gun,� that Helice was a maker of long arms�.that Helice was...whatever�.

Et bien d�ja je vais vous dire une chose , c'est que H�lice est un syst�me de fermeture d'une arme basculante . Ensuite que les premieres fermetures des armes a bascules �taient r�alis�es au moyen d'un verrou pivotant a h�lice ...d'ou le fameux h�lice qui vous fait raconter tout et n'importe quoi !!!Excusez moi si j' y vais un peu fort,mais je pense que si Casimir Lefaucheux lisait ce post il deviendrait ....fou de rage !!! qui n'a jamais vu son grand p�re ou son voisin articuler le fameux levier sous la longuesse du vieux fusil a broche ����:::le levier qui commandait le verrou "HELICE " ,ce fameux h�lice !!!

Well I am going to tell you all a few things; first that Helice is a closing system for a center-break long arm. The first closing system for center-break long arms was a lock pivoting on a helix screw; That�s the famous Helice which you all have been saying whatever about. Excuse me if I am speaking a little strongly, but I think that if Casimir Lefaucheux were reading these posts he would become crazy with rage. Who has not seen one�s Grandfather or one�s neighbor manipulate the famous lever under the fore-stock of an old pin-fire rifle? The lever which controlled the �HELICE� (helical) lock, that�s the famous helice!!

Ensuite ce fameux syst�me dit "H�lice" grace au progr�s r�alis� sur les Hammerless notament fut transpos� si je puis dire sur le haut du boitier de culasse sous forme d'une clef qu e vous avez tous manipul�s ,ceci a cause de l'adoption de diff�rents verrous horizontaux et verticaux afin de reporter ces verrous plus loinde l'axe de bascule afin d'avoir une plus grande r�sistance a la pression , ceci encore a cause des adoptions de nouvelles poudres plus puissantes .

The famous system called �Helice,� thanks to progress on the �hammerless� system, was moved onto the top of the breech in the form of a key which you have all used. This was because of the adoption of different horizontal and vertical locks in order to move these locks further from the axis of the break in order to achieve a greater resistance to pressure, a need caused by the adoption of new more powerful powders.

Il en reste n�anmoins que le syst�me h�lice restait appliqu� parce que la fameuse clef par son mouvement lat�ral circulaire poussait un m�canisme semblable a l'ancien levier de dessous de longuesse des temps anciens (dits anciens ) et verrouillait le basculement et de l� naquis l'id�e de verrous multiples possibles sur divers points afin de renforcer la r�sistance au d�part du coup de feu :

The helices (helical) closing system remained up-to-date because of that famous key, which by its lateral circular movement pushed a mechanism similar to the old under-lever along the fore-stock of olden days, locking the break. Thus was born the idea of multiple possible locks at different points in order to reinforce the ability of the gun to fire heavier cartridges.

Et alors ? et bien c'est monsieur Webley qui en 1894 mis au point un syst�me a triple verrou ,syst�me qui dure encore de nos jours sur beaucoup de fusils de chasse ....et m�me sur les canons de tr�s fort calibre militaires !!!! :un d�bordement de la t�te de clef agit directement par friction et par pression sur une encoche a forme de gradin,taill�e en saillie dans le prolongement de la bande des canon et qui passe a l'ouverture et la fermeture sous la t�te de clef !

It was Mr. Webley who in 1894 created a system of triple locks, a system which continues to be used to this day on many shotguns and even on barrels of very strong military calibers. An overthrust of the head of the key acted directly by friction and pressure on a notch in the shape of a step, cut and projecting in the prolongation of the band of the barrels, which passed on opening and closing under the head of the key.

ET alors ? Verney Carron? et bien lui il a simplement modifi� ce g�nial syst�me HELICE a triple verrou de Webley en syst�me encore plus fiable a quadruple verrou dit H�licobloc de Verney Carron en d�posant un brevet en 1896 ! Jamais le syst�me H�lice n'a �t� brevet� , mais largement frapp� et �voqu� sur les boitiers en y accolant parfois les initiales du constructeur de l'arme !

Verney Carron? well, all he did was simply modify the triple lock HELICE system of Webley to a system still more reliable with quadruple locks called HELICOBLOC on which Verney Carron took out a patent in 1896! The actual Helice system was never patented, but for the most part the (generic) word was engraved and raised up on the breech of the gun, often including the initials of the builder of the gun.

Alors SVP ne dites pas que Verney Carron a invent� le H�lice ceci cela ! le syst�me de fermeture Dit H�lice existait d�ja depuis ..... 100 ans !avec la venue au monde du fusil a bascule !!!! et que le syst�me du double verrouillage trouva sa naissance vers 1880 et la combinaison de cette fameuse clef de dessus de boitier appel�e CLE TOP LEVER par le fameux Webley ,permit d'all�ger consid�rablement l'est�thique du fusil car dot�e de son verrou coulissant sous les planches de bascule en employant le fameux syst�me de fermeture HELICE !

So please don�t say that Verney Carron invented the Helice. The helical system of closing the breech called Helice already existed for 100 years since the brith of the center break long gun. A system of double locking was born around 1880, and the combination of that famous key above the breech called the �TOP LEVER KEY� by Webley, permitted the esthetic of the long gun to be considerably improved by being equipped with his sliding lock using the famous HELICE closing system.

Et alors ? et bien sachez qu'un seul fusil fut brevet� sous la marque HELICE ,c'est le fusil fabriqu� par Marcel Philippon et qu'ensuite une "Foultitude "de fabriquants d'armes baptis�rent leur arme a l'aide d'un pr�fixe HELICE et arborant parfois sur leurs boitiers le fameux HELICE . D'ailleurs en voici une liste prise sur un livre de Maurice Forissier ,livre qui m'avait �t� offert par mes anciens coll�gues d'�cole d'armurerie lors de mon d�part en retraite en 2007 .

It is well known that only one single long gun was patented under the mark �HELICE; I was the long gun fabricated by Marcek Philippon. And following that a multitude of arms makers baptized their gun with the aid of a prefix HELICE while adding their names or initials onto the breech or combining it with HELICE. Below is a list (of various uses of HELICE combined with names of gun makers) taken from a book by Maurice Forissier, which was given to me by my old workmates/collegues from the armorie school when I retired in 2007.

Raimey, ATM-football...hummmm am I getting close? (Ok, Bear and Gene Stallings tried to help there with indifferent success so I don't think the new management Jumbo just hired is going to worry Saban).

EDIT! EDIT!! HOLD ON! Wait Wait....my bad...you must be referring to this one....I'll look further:




Well Larry, Raimey has successfully hijacked your line but anyway, here's a poster partly copied above. Hope it answer's the question? Or was this the origin of the question?

Larry, I'm going to bore you...sitting here fiddling sort of like Stan in rehabilitation. I looked everywhere on French sites for 50 cm, 2" chambered guns and haven't found any. But here's an interesting comment on www,Passionlachasse.com

MessageSujet: Re: Fusil chambr� 67 ???? Jeu 26 Sep 2013 - 1:08 Mentionner
Bonsoir Hunter59x,
Il est fort possible que ton copain ait raison et que son fusil soit chambr� en 12/67. Cette histoire de longueurs de chambres me turlupinait d�autant plus qu�ici en Grande-Bretagne, un bon nombre de calibre 12 furent produits chambr�s en 2� (soit 50mm) et certains armuriers �taient un peu fantaisites avec leurs chambrages...
J�ai jet� un coup d�oeil sur le site de � La canonnerie st�phanoise � et voici une vue d��cran de leur site avec les diff�rents chambrages des divers calibres : pour le calibre 12 on y parle de chambres de 65, 67, 70, 76 et 89. Donc, je pense qu�on peut en d�duire que le 12/67 est bel et bien un chambrage reconnu. J�ignorais aussi d�ailleurs l�existence d�un 28/76 et d�un 16/76, m�me si les douilles de 16 magnum ne doivent pas courir les rues...
http://www.passionlachasse.com/t18966-fusil-chambre-67

rough translation: Good evening Hunter59x; its very possible that your friend was right and that your gun was chamber for 12 gauge 67mm. The history of the length of chamber bothers me much more here than in the UK. there a goodly number of 12 gauge guns were made chambered for 2" (i.e. 50mm) and some gunmakers were a little outrageous in their chambering..I checked out a site "la canonnerier stephanoise: and there was a view on the screen of their site a view with different chambers of difference gauges...for 12 gauge they spoke of chambers of65, 67, 70 76, 89...Thus I think that one can deduce that 12/67 is really a known chamber size. ...

I started looking at this site "la canonnerie stephanois": It's a company in Saint Etienne which repairs French guns. It occurs that they' might have information on what cartridges French guns were chambered for and when..and especially wonder if they have info on pre WWI French shells? .I'll get hold of them.
http://www.canonnerie-stephanoise.fr

Argo, that's a lot of very nice and interesting history. But per the above, from M. Neltir himself, we have verification that V-C did indeed receive a patent on their modification of the Webley system--which, again, M. Neltir admits is "still more reliable with quadruple locks".

From that point, with the name HelicoBloc protected, once the patent expired on the actual locking mechanism, other makers began to use it as well--and often put the word "Helice" (which was not protected) or some variation thereof on the top lever of their guns. The fact that V-C didn't come up with an entirely new locking system from the ground up is neither here nor there. Likely a bazillion patents have been granted on what are only modifications of something that already exists. In this case, the French patent office recognized, by granting a patent, that V-C's locking mechanism differed enough from any then in use that it deserved a patent of its own. A whole lot of words about what V-C did NOT do . . . but the only really important point is the part I quoted.

Yes..agree on VC action and patents - they were/are very good. But what's the common denominator amongst all those "HELICE" locks? Is there any? Or is it just a word? We'd have to go through each one to figure out whether it's a VC purloined 4th lock copy or something else. What does a gun with "Helice" on the key mean? If anything? It's got a left stop? It operates on a helical principle as has every center-break gun since Lefaucheux? If you speak of a "Helice system"...it means there's a system. There isn't unless you suppose that every use of the Helice variant means a VC copy....and that supposition can't be supported.

I saw another French 2� boxlock for sale at GriffinHowe several years ago. So obviously more than one made. I would have thought that 2� guns would have been popular in France given their madness for woodcock hunting. I mean, look at the Breton O/U. No one is crazier about woodcock hunting than the French.

Argo,
I believe the maker in your list, above, that is referred to as "Grange" is, actually
the firm of Georges Granger.
This is a maker who is the equal of, or superior to anyone producing guns anywhere in the world.

Best,
Ted