doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com ATF redefining Antique

Thank you all, especially Edwardian, for your posts on this matter.
Sadly, I am still a little nervous even though I am sure we are in the right. I maintain a very healthy caution in dealing with another countries' authorities although I could argue my corner in the UK without breaking sweat!
It will not stop me coming over but it will colour my decisions on moving around the USA with my stock until I see something in writing from ATF.
They may not be able to make law but they could make my life very uncomfortable.

and that sir is the gist of it

Since it hasn't quite been mentioned, it may be possible that the confusion that smallbore brought up has to do with the very recent ITAR/DDTC changes. While it wouldn't seem to affect you, it may be worth keeping in mind that it doesn't come from any law, ATF or pres. order. It seems there might be a concern because the new regulation may apply to folks and firearms that are not intended to be involved.

I drove half way across the country with a shotgun and ammo stowed away in my pick up truck.


A long arm, antique or not, no problems.

Gentlemen: Unless Congress radically changes current law, which is highly unlikely given the longstanding political climate, no one will be reading a writing or advisory from ATF in future concerning antique firearms because ATF are naturally aware they have no underlying statutory authority to engage the matter. Has any one of us ever known of a bureaucrat doing anything they are not required to do? That firearm category is outside their legal authority. Given there is no statutory authority to be found anywhere in federal law allowing them to regulate antique firearms, the ATF cannot and thus will not of its own accord promulgate rules or regulations respecting this particular category of firearm. To do so would be indisputably unlawful, as well as impolitic and irrelevant. Likewise, ATF cannot make the life of an antique firearm owner in the U.S. or the person importing an antique firearm into the U.S. uncomfortable. ATF have nothing to say on the subject.

To reiterate, rules and regulations promulgated by federal agencies are explications of federal law; but they are not law. Only Congress can make or change federal law. Government agencies may be authorized by Congress to promulgate rules and regulations, which must find support in existing federal law. However, if there is no authorizing basis in federal law upon which to justify the creation of the rule or regulation, the federal agency obviously cannot promulgate the same because no requisite underlying legal authority or the remotest rationale for it to do so exists.

Remark the "rule" that led to this discussion is a proposed rule reportedly being circulated by ATF for public comment. Since this is a rule, we immediately understand the subject of the proposed rule has to be the modern or "firearm" category. Why, you ask? The legal term "firearm," as that legal term is universally defined in applicable federal statutes, expressly excludes the legal term "antique firearm." This definitional exclusion of the "antique firearm" category is ubiquitous throughout every federal statute pertaining to firearms. The antique firearm is thereby specifically excluded from any and all federal regulation by any federal agency tasked by Congress with enforcing federal firearm-related laws. So logically, we are left with the "firearm" (and perhaps the curio & relic firearm category as well) category possibly affected by the proposed ATF rule.

Lastly, when an individual is importing an antique firearm from abroad, one may, for example, have some difficulty with U.S. Customs and Border Protection, say, with the verifying paperwork establishing the age of the 'antique' item being imported. But the difficulties encountered will be resolved solely through U.S. Customs rather than with ATF. The latter agency has nothing whatever to say about, or can intervene unilaterally in, or play any part concerning, the importation of an antique firearm, because they have no lawful statutory authority to become involved if the matter concerns the antique firearm category.

I hope the foregoing helps to further allay concerns about the antique firearm category and its unregulated status under federal law.


Regards,

Edwardian

Edwardian I know what you state is true but the tin foil hat crowd will see nasty conspiracies everywhere because they always think that they do see them. I do not foresee confiscation of my guns, in my lifetime as being more than pipe dream of the anti gun people. What does concern me is the back door attempts to make it less enjoyable to have and shoot guns. But a frontal assault will be doomed to failure even by Executive Order, Government regulation or outright gun grabbing. Heck we spent weeks debating where a person can and can not go to pee for Gods sake. Revoking one of the first ten amendments should be just about out of question.

Do you know which supposed ATF document Edwardian is referring to?

KY John,
Check what happened in NOLA after Hurricane Katrina; I don't think the guns confiscated by the police have been returned, even in face of a Federal court order to do so.
Mike

Edwardian, very good.

"craigd," with respect to this forum and instant thread, I referenced the post by "Geo. Newbern" (the fourth post in this thread on 20 September), which is comprised mostly of a quote with respect to a proposed ATF rule change, some aspect of which I had earlier discussed at length with "smallbore" on another forum on a separate venue. The latter discussion with "smallbore" concerned antique firearm replicas and what, if anything, the proposed rule change, if adopted, would have on their legal status, etc. Bottom line: If the replica in question meets all the requirements to be or remain classed as an antique firearm, there would be no effect on its status or current classification. Actually, the rules / regulations pertaining to antique firearm replica classification, with respect to when a replica is or will not to be so classed, are clear.

That being said, I adjure all readers of federal law, or the rules and regulations promulgated by government agencies, who want truly to comprehend what they are reading, to first become familiar with the definitions of the legal terms used therein, and to strictly avoid generic interpretations of those terms. There are definitions for the legal terms employed within the respective statutes. Also, pay close attention to what is expressly 'excluded' from the legal definition. Otherwise, the reader will misunderstand and ineluctably misinterpret what they have read, and then proceed to misapply what is an erroneous interpretation.

___________________________

"Toby Barclay," ATF cannot unilaterally change or in any manner affect the longstanding legal definition for the antique firearm category as firmly grounded in federal statutes. They have no legal authority to do anything whatsoever with respect to that particular category. No rule or regulation promulgated by ATF, in accordance with every federal statute pertaining to / governing firearms, has any effect on the antique firearm category, because it does not come under their legal authority. They only have authority to regulate the separate categories "curio and relic firearms" and (modern) "firearms,"--end of story.

Finally, no agency or creature of the federal government can make or change a federal law, or amend it. And in the event, only the U.S. Congress can do so, and to date our Congressmen have been remarkably disinclined to favor ATF. In order to change the definition of antique firearm, as that legal term is defined under several titles of federal law, Congress would need to act and make another or change the law. Agencies can promulgated rules and regulations, period, but no agency can make, change or amend federal law. ATF are not authorized under any federal statute to regulate the antique firearm. That category is expressly excluded from any and all regulation by federal law. That exclusion from regulation does, of course, include any regulation or rule-making on the part of ATF. ATF is not Congress but simply an agency of government, and as such is subservient to the law. As well, given they have no legal authority to act or to regulate the category, they can play no part in the importation of an antique firearm. U.S. Customs and Border Protection has authority over the importation of 'antiques,' not ATF, which plays no role for lack of legal authority.


Regards to all,

Edwardian