April
S M T W T F S
1 2 3 4 5 6
7 8 9 10 11 12 13
14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24 25 26 27
28 29 30
Who's Online Now
7 members (Karl Graebner, Marks_21, Kolar Dickson, FlyChamps, 2 invisible), 765 guests, and 6 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums10
Topics38,469
Posts545,147
Members14,409
Most Online1,335
Apr 27th, 2024
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3
#452765 08/09/16 06:00 PM
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 17
Boxlock
OP Offline
Boxlock

Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 17
I am looking for some help identifying this gun. Based on my research it seems to be a french gun. I was told that it was 16Ga. and I think it has 2 3/4 chambers (the 17.1 proof, the 70, and it chambers 16Ga. 2 3/4 shells fine.) I think it is proofed for smokeless powder (the PT under the crown.)

Am I correct? Is there anything else that someone can tell me from the proofs.

I am also looking for a good gunsmith in the Norfolk, Virginia area to check it out before I shoot it.



Thanks for any help you can give me.

Stephen


Stephen
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,533
Likes: 169
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,533
Likes: 169
Hello Stephen
Welcome on your first posting
Yes
See below , and look at #34 on the St Etienne column
http://www.shotguns.se/html/france.html
Mike

Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,159
Likes: 319
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,159
Likes: 319
Stephen, The gun was proofed in St Etienne. The barrels are stamped “double epreuve//“ (double proofed) and the proof mark verifies this.

The Marking “M Serre PT” is not clear (possibly meaning “tested or hardened for PT” - “a St Etienne” - “in St Etienne.”

There is a mark on the barrel lock…”AUHOLEREGI” or variant… and “CURTIEN” or variant. If you can provide a readout on these words, I’ll research them some more. This might be the barrel maker.



Re the marking “Roturier, Ste. Foy la Grande.” - this looks like this is the seller or perhaps the firm which assembled the gun. This is normal in French guns. Little hardware stores all over France marketed guns assembled from imported parts...sometimes not even putting a name on them...or if they got enough aristocratic patronage, they'd add a name....



Sainte-Foy-la-Grande is a commune in the Gironde department in Aquitaine in southwestern France on the Dordogne River 30 miles east of Bordeaux. (Aquitaine - think Gascony and D'Artagnan from 3 Musketeers). I believe it was once two towns…the Port Sainte Foy de Pinuilh and Sainte Foy…they apparently merged in the 19th century into Sainte Foy la Grande. (believe Porte Sainte Foy was the head of navigation on the Dore River and was quite prosperous for a time). The Dordognee River runs due east from Bordeaux then up into the Midi and forms the border between Geronde Department and Dordogne Department. There is a canal up the river starting at Ste Foy.

There apparently was a very well known company there the Etablissmente Roturier in the 1920’s-50’s which manufactured tools, assembled bicycles, repaired motorcycles, tractors and sold hunting and fishing equipment, etc., typical French hardware store serving a region. Monsieur Jean Edmond Roturier….may have been the founder or a descendent. I can’t find much about Messieur Roturier or his company. However, in 1976 the “Maison Roturier,” listed as an “Armurerie” (a gun store i.e armory), was established by Jean Marie Edmond Vircoulon, identified as an former employee and associate of Roturier… Another post indicated M. Vircoulon took this firm or at least the name over in 1955 and ran it for 54 years.

Vircoulon retired in 2009 and his shop at 41 Rue Victor Hugo was closed. The name, however, ultimately was taken over by a young 26 year old protege Bastien Pierrot. His shop is at 19 bis de l'avenue Leclerc ŕ Pineuilh (part of Ste..Foy la Grande). Here is an article about him.

http://www.sudouest.fr/2010/09/17/l-armurier-renoue-avec-la-tradition-187242-3038.php



Pierrot studied at the armorer’s school in Saint-Etienne, spent 5 years in Italy working for famous makers of shotguns, spent another year in London in sales and repair of shotguns. His store “Maison Roturier” sells rifles, carbines, shotguns and shells. He also repairs guns. Since he was in London, he probably speaks English (and by the way that whole area was owned by the British crown up to about 1420 (Elenore of Aquitaine married (2nd marriage) Herni II, Duke of Normandy and King of England = the 100 Years War, i.e. battles of Crecy, Poitiers and Agincourt, Ste Jean d'Arc, etc) and is very pro-anglo/American).

Vircoulon is now the unofficial historian of the area. I think he is on Facebook. I’m sure if you wrote to him and sent some pictures, he could tell you more about the gun and the history of the Ets. Roturier…. My father was killed in Normandy; I was tracking down the locations of all the photos found in his camera and my experience is the French are very helpful in such matters.

By the way “roturier” in French means “a person not of noble birth” or a “commoner.” As an aside, in 1983 upon returning from Africa my wife and I drove up that road into the Midi going from Bordeaux to St. Chamond and St Etienne. The Dore is beautiful...

Final note: Maps.google have this shop still at 41 Rue Victor Hugo (see sign saying "peche"(fishing) "chasse"(hunting) in the window (MBK is a brand of moto cycle). (I believe also by that time Vircoulon was involved in real estate which may explain the photos by the door); Possibly Pierrot moved back to the original premises? But on the other hand, google doesn't update its french photos that often and this photo might still be from the mid 2000's before Vircoulon retired. From the cars seen in the maps.google street pans, the latter is probably true.



We need to see photos of the break key and lock. and other parts of the gun. Thanks.

Gene Williams

Last edited by Argo44; 10/18/18 07:54 AM.

Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,377
Likes: 105
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,377
Likes: 105
Interesting stuff. "Armurerie" is one of my favorite words in French, if you want to practice pronouncing your French R.

3 piece forend. That gun resembles both Merkels and some OU's that were made in Belgium. Back in the 30's, Abercrombie & Fitch sold similar Belgian-made OU's under their own name. You don't run into French-made OU's all that often. The famous one, of course, is the Petrik--which Remington pretty much copied for their Model 32. Then copied by Krieghoff.

Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 4,081
Likes: 472
GLS Offline
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 4,081
Likes: 472
Gene, thanks for the tour. Gil

Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,859
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,859
Nice gun, 2.75" chambers, double proofs, it even has double triggers. Those French built it right!

Steve


Approach life like you do a yellow light - RUN IT! (Gail T.)
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 297
Likes: 3
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 297
Likes: 3
Interesting research Argo 44. The gun is question is made by Blondeau who make these guns for most of the French dealers in all shape and sizes, even sidelocks. When I saw the picture I immediatly thought about Blondeau and to be sure I attach a link to a gun who is for the moment for sale at Natura Bay, here is the link:http://www.naturabuy.fr/adsearch.php?title=2850361
cheers, Marc.

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,533
Likes: 169
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,533
Likes: 169


USAF RET 1971-95 [Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 17
Boxlock
OP Offline
Boxlock

Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 17
Thanks for all the great information. I have more pictures and will try and post a few more tomorrow.

Stephen


Stephen
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 17
Boxlock
OP Offline
Boxlock

Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 17
Here are some more images of the gun. I hope this is what you were looking for Gene. I apologize that some of the pictures are a little blurry. Photography is not my strong suit.

Also thanks for all that neat information about the french gun trade in general and my gun dealer in particular.



Still need a good gunsmith

Stephen


Stephen
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3

Link Copied to Clipboard

doublegunshop.com home | Welcome | Sponsors & Advertisers | DoubleGun Rack | Doublegun Book Rack

Order or request info | Other Useful Information

Updated every minute of everyday!


Copyright (c) 1993 - 2024 doublegunshop.com. All rights reserved. doublegunshop.com - Bloomfield, NY 14469. USA These materials are provided by doublegunshop.com as a service to its customers and may be used for informational purposes only. doublegunshop.com assumes no responsibility for errors or omissions in these materials. THESE MATERIALS ARE PROVIDED "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANT-ABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR NON-INFRINGEMENT. doublegunshop.com further does not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials. doublegunshop.com shall not be liable for any special, indirect, incidental, or consequential damages, including without limitation, lost revenues or lost profits, which may result from the use of these materials. doublegunshop.com may make changes to these materials, or to the products described therein, at any time without notice. doublegunshop.com makes no commitment to update the information contained herein. This is a public un-moderated forum participate at your own risk.

Note: The posting of Copyrighted material on this forum is prohibited without prior written consent of the Copyright holder. For specifics on Copyright Law and restrictions refer to: http://www.copyright.gov/laws/ - doublegunshop.com will not monitor nor will they be held liable for copyright violations presented on the BBS which is an open and un-moderated public forum.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.0.33-0+deb9u11+hw1 Page Time: 0.087s Queries: 35 (0.059s) Memory: 0.8596 MB (Peak: 1.8991 MB) Data Comp: Off Server Time: 2024-04-27 17:38:57 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS