doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Clues for a muzzle loader SXS age estimation

This is a question for you hardcore muzzle loading enthusiasts. Besides proof markings, are there any rule-of-thumb ways to estimate the age of a percussion muzzle loading shotgun based on lock types, stock sculpture, things like the presence or absence of blow-out plugs, whether or not a ML has chokes (or is that something confined to my Pedersoli replica?), cap and wad compartments near the butt. Is there any way to use these as clues to an accurate estimation of the guns age?

Steve

I am not an expert but seeing as they were only popular for around 40 years I would think that it would be hard to date one by design changes. Other than changing from flint to percussion the guns stayed pretty much the same until cartridge guns were adopted.

Probably not much help Steve, but true Stub Twist barrels were uncommon after about 1860.

The Irish Industrial Exhibition of 1853: A Detailed Catalogue of Its Contents, John Sproule, 1854
http://books.google.com/books?id=cNKl8YYZejsC
In stub-twist, a bar of iron is made as follows: � A quantity of stubs, i. e., small pieces of iron or steel, are raised to a welding heat, and consolidated by a few blows, and then drawn down between rollers to the required size. The excellence of the material depends on the quality of the stubs employed; that being in most repute formerly which was manufacture I from horse-nail stubs, or old horse-shoe nails collected by the farriers. Of late years these have deteriorated in quality, and it became necessary to apply, in the preparation of the strands, other processes which have for their object the purification of the iron...

The New American Cyclopaedia: A Popular Dictionary of General Knowledge George Ripley, Charles Anderson Dana, 1859
http://books.google.com/books?id=kL9PAAAAMAAJ
From a very early period the superiority of the metal used for horse-shoe nails was well understood, and the old nails, or stubs, were reserved for the manufacture of gun barrels. They were largely imported into England from the continent; and it was not until the supply was becoming insufficient that such success was attained in the use of other equally good materials...

The Modern Sportsman's Gun and Rifle, John Henry Walsh (Editor of The Field), 1882
http://books.google.com/books?id=OLwUAAAAYAAJ
�CONSTRUCTION OF THE GUN�
The chief difficulty in the present day is to obtain iron of sufficiently good quality to mix with the steel, whether for Damascus or laminated barrels. Formerly horseshoe stub nails were alone thought good enough; but of late years these have fallen off in quality, and are also insufficient for the supply of the increased demand for shot guns since the passing of the present game law.

Shooting Thomas de Grey Walsingham, Ralph Payne-Gallwey, Gerald Lascelles, Archibald John Stuart-Wortley, Simon Fraser Lovat, Charles Lennox Kerr, 1886
http://books.google.com/books?id=MT9NF4BnAFIC
Gun-barrels of the best kind, since the early years of the present century, have been formed by wrapping round a metal rod a bar consisting of hot iron and steel strips twisted up together, horseshoe nails, as before, having been used for the iron till about 1840, at which date the nails went out of use, the supply of these not being sufficient to meet the rapidly increasing demand for sporting guns.


Of course even the U.S. makers referred to barrels as "Stub Twist" into the 1880s.

Parker hammer lifter




If the barrels look like this, the gun is likely of superior quality and dates pre-1860

Hi Drew,

After I posted I thought that perhaps damascus barrel patterns could supply clues. For instance my current Belgium ML has a barrel pattern similar to the above Parker. Several years ago I had a 36 gauge Belgium ML that had a pattern closer to the pattern in your lower photo.

As for locks. My 36 gauge had back action locks. I also had a 9/10 gauge Manton that I dated back to the mid-1850's and it had back action locks. My 12 gauge Belgium ML has bar locks. I think it may be newer then the first two. I think it was made and sold as an inexpensive farmers gun and may have been built well into the breech loader era.

However, if what Oskar said holds true perhaps it's not worth being concerned about.

Steve

I have a Birmingham proofed I Hollis Ml'r that I feel sure postdates an also Birmingham proofed W Richards breech loader hammer. The I Hollis has a optional proof showing the provisional proof was not applied normally but was done at final proof with the heavier provisional load. I would have to look up the date for when this was first used but am certain the W Richards had an earlier proof. The breech loader has back action locks with a left side lever opener. The ML'r has front action locks, not sure you would call them bar action on a MLr.

Other than dating the twist barrels method of construction I don't know that you can date a muzzleloading shotgun any other way other than the proof marks. The locks, be it a bar action or back action sidelock or a back action lock, were made throughout the muzzleloading period.

ginerally speakin, short tang indicates early, pre 1850 gon...short rear trigger is anutter clue...den der ist da broad trigger guard, witch ist an indicator uf an early gon...an den luk fur features found unt flint lock gons...dat suggests an early percussion gon...

Actually Ed, after translating your attempt at humor your comment's make good sense . I suppose the "blow out plug" would be an example of a early percussion gun or even in some cases a flintlock that had been converted to percussion.

Steve

All the flint muzzle loaders that I can recall have front action locks, because part of the mechanism is mounted on the lock plate below and forward of the touch hole. I have never seen a flint lock with a back action lock. For some reason I have always associated muzzle loading double shotguns with front action locks with the higher priced/higher quality guns.

Tom, you make an interesting point. I had a 36 gauge Belgium made ML that I always thought was an early youth gun. It had a 13.5� LOP but what I found interesting was the lack of quality in the engraving and checkering. It was as if it�d been engraved and checkered to be �Just like dad�s gun!� It also had back action locks. I must be a kid at heart because I really liked the little SXS and used it to hunt preserve pheasants. When I was hit by a tsunami of health and financial problems around 2009 I was fortunate enough to be able to sell it to a board member who I knew would take good care of it.

Steve