doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DIY Gunsmithing @ doublegunshop.com Simson firing both barrels at the same time!!!!!!

I have a Simson 12 gauge double barrel shotgun.
I shot some trap with the gun, and did not have a problem
Went duck huntin with it, was using a little heavier load.
3 time's when I fired the gun, both barrels went off at the same time.
I like the gun, but it has to operate like I think it should, which means one barrel per trigger.
I'm not a gunsmith, but I did pull the wood off, and checked everything that I could see, with out disassembling the gun.
Fired it a number of time's, can't see anything worn, etc.
Has to be in the receiver, and I'm not going there.
So, what I'm wondering is if there is a gunsmith out there that can help me with my problem?
Thanks
Jim

Boxlock or sidelock. How can you have dis-assembled the gun and not seen: inner wood damage-splinters in the jaws of the stock or anywhere else, dirt, gummy oil, gunk and crud need to be removed if and when you either field or detail strip the action of any shotgun--heavier shells can cause this problem as well in older side-by-side double guns. I have a 1944 era 12 gauge LC Smith Ideal grade in FWE- 28" M&F- with RST 1140 fps loads, or Remington STS 1140 fps loads- no problem- but if I use a AA Handicap load at 1350 fps in either or both barrels, 50% of the time it will double- and it has DT, not the troublesome Elie HOT, so to avoid any stock cracking issues with a double gun that is very expensive to have re-stocked, I use RST 1140 fps shells 100% in that later Ideal grade, as well as the 4 other 12 gauge Elsies I own. is your shotgun an european mfg. gun?If so, have you verified the chamber length- You want to see a 70mm chamber stamping- equals our 2 &3/4" lengths shells-RWTF

RWTF;
A Simson is a German made gun.
Mine was made in the early seventies, it shoots 2 3/4" shells.
They are made at the same factory that Merkels/Sauers are made.
No the Simson is not a lesser grade gun, they all are the same quality. A Merkel 47, is a Simson 147. My #147, is a very nice shotgun.

Mine is a boxlock, if it was a side lock then I would be able to pull the lock to find the problem. I've built plenty of smokepoles over the years to wish it was a sidelock, then I could fix the problem.
I removed the butt stock, to expose the trigger/safety parts.
I left the rest of the gun assembled, and fired it quite a bit with a set of snap caps. I can see no problems, and I could not get the gun to fire both barrels at the same time.
The gun is clean, there are no slivers, dirt, crud, gunk, or gummy oil. It looks brand new.
There are no visibly worn, or worn out parts. All of the metal edges are crisp, and square.

My trap loads are 1 1/8 ozs, they travel at 1200 fps, and they develop about 9200 LUP.
My duck loads are 1 1/4 ozs, they travel at 1150 fps, and they develop about 9200 LUP.

My duck loads are tungsten-poly, and it gets mighty expensive firing two of them at a time, plus I lose the some time's needed benefits, of the second shot. lol
I haven't fired the gun with trap loads since, now they might double up too. I don't have a clue, I just need someone to fix my gun.
If I knew what to expect in the receiver, I'd do it myself, but at this stage in the game, I'd like to get an expert to fix it.
I've contacted several gunsmiths around Minnesota, they are not familiar with the gun, and will not work on it. One guy suggested "Albrights" out in Maryland, but it appears to me that they lost their gunsmith, and aren't doing any repairs, over and above gun cleaning.
So I'm still looking for someone that works on Merkels/Simsons?

By the way, I'm restocking a Merkel model 8. If I had to have a stock made it would be mighty expensive. Luckily I have a sawmill, have cut a lot of walnut over the years, and have the skill to make a gunstock, I just can't fix my Simson.

Thanks
Jim

Another Minnesota boy? Have you tried Ahlman's? I don't know if they'd be willing or not but they do good work.

Jim,
I would start by measuring the trigger pulls. They should be between 3.5 and 5 lbs. Assuming no one has ever altered anything it should be a simple matter of changing the sear angles. Merkels/Simpsons are no different than any other box lock to work on, the principles are the same(though some German guns do have sears that are hung from the top side of the receiver). Any decent double gun smith should be able to get you straightened out in pretty short order. If you are not in a hurry I can repair it for you but I'm backed up until spring at least. Best of luck with it.
Steve

Jim,

One thought is to check the trigger pull as SKB suggested but you may not need to change the sear angle, it could be that the Sear Spring (which is usually a Vee spring) may be weak allowing the sear to get bumped off with heavier loads. This would just necessitate replacement of the sear spring. Even a quality gun like the Simson (I have a couple of Simson Drillings) can have a bum spring from time to time.

Also, since you are in Minnesota, I have a buddy that has uses someone up around Superior who specializes in older SXS, Drillings and German Doubles. I will get you his contact info and forward it to you.

Don

Check the sear springs--measure the pull on each trigger with the hammers down. If unequal, look into increasing the left barrel spring tension--might be done with a shim, if its a flat spring. Hopefully the spring is not cracked.

You may want to check with Mark's Born Again Bird Guns - he usually has a couple Merkels in his inventory and he posts here.
http://www.mbabllc.com/page/page/7927803.htm

A couple years ago I had a hammer spring break (a crack, not all the way through) on my Simson (vintage 1979). I contacted Merkel USA to see whether their parts would work in my gun. They advised their springs would work and I got one, had a local smith replace it. I think the spring cost like $50.

I think it's safe to assume Merkel spare parts will fit your gun, at least until proven otherwise.

It depends on what vintage gun it is. Mine is pre-WWII. Some of the box locks have a bar above and below the sears so the only way the sear tails move is with the safety off. If the trigger plate pops off easily the interrupting sear safety isn't there. If any of the screws are buggered you may have a harder time fixing what was done to "fix" it in the past. Good luck

Thanks for the info guy's, it's much appreciated.
Jim