doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Spanish Gun Market. What is your input?

I'll as my experience, for what it's worth. I've owned a variety of Spanish guns over the years (AyA, Arrieta, Sarasqueta, Ugartechea) and I'm a degenerate gun trader...the Spanish guns have not treated me well in the resale area. I have a pretty good eye for a deal, but have never made $ or even broke even on a Spanish gun. I've owned a variety of other continental doubles and all the American classics and have generally done well with trade/resale...over the past few years the entire sellers market got tougher, but ESP with the Spanish offerings.

I purchased my first Spanish gun (Ugartechea Grd 20 gauge) from Lion Country Supply in 2005....new it was $1100. It was a lot of value for the money. I believe that same gun now is $1800....not a lot if value at that price, in fact prob overpriced. I recently bought a 2nd Grd 1 20 gauge Uggie from a guy in another forum, I believe 2011 manufacture, for $1000....that a BIG price difference.

Now, I'm not a well-healed gent, I'm a humble public servant with a family and the cost of living over the past few years has killed me. I couldn't afford a 4/53 or Arrieta even at the "old" prices....with he prices now I believe the Spanish makers have priced themselves out of their target market and are in a sort of retail limbo.

Kyrie, 7000 Euros is well above the price of a new AyA 4/53 or No 2 these days--and that's AFTER hefty price increases, across the board. Assuming your estimate is realistic, that means the Spanish are no longer in the mid-range sxs market, but have moved exclusively to a higher level. Indeed, if you can't afford the prices, then you can't afford the guns. On the other hand: is there enough business at the 7000 euro and up level to keep the doors open at AyA, Arrieta, Garbi, Grulla etc? Especially when the used market in this country will offer plenty of Spanish guns from the same makers for far less? Looks to me as if it's a problem as much for the sellers as it is for the buyers.

Larry,

I think there are a few different, albeit related, topics here. Let�s break it down a little for clarity.


I don�t believe that�s the case, at least for the AyA No 2. John from the UK has kindly provided a current list price for that gun in England:



A quick trip to Google Finance provides the current GBP to USD exchange rate (1.5972), so 5700 GBP is currently 9104 USD, the USD/Euro rate (same source) is 1.2511, so $9104 is at present 7277 Euro. There it is; AyA No 2 is already listing for over 7000 Euro.

I have no idea what current list is on an AyA box lock of any kind and wasn�t thinking of box lock guns when I made the �7000 Euro� comment. Candidly, I�m a little surprised any Spanish gun maker is still offering any box lock shotgun, but box lock guns are another subject � let�s leave that for another day.


Hmmm. I suppose the AyA No 2 and 4/53 could be considered �mid-range� SxS guns in some overall SxS market. But looking only at Spanish SxS shotguns, those guns are bottom price point.


In my opinion? Maybe. The only hope any of the makers have in the near term, assuming the financial and banking world of the Euro doesn�t improve dramatically, is dropping the breakeven and loss leader models and raising the prices on the mid to high price point guns. That might buy them enough time to outlast the political and financial blunder that is the EU. It�s for sure that none of them will last if they keep selling guns on which they take losses.


The USA market isn�t going to make or break the Spanish gun makers. We have been the Medicaid of the Spanish shotgun market for decades; not much money, but a consistent small income. Right now, every Euro is important to the gun makers and they miss our small contribution, but we�re too small a market for the kinds of guns they need to sell for us to be terribly significant.

And there is this: the Spanish shotgun makers are in the business of selling custom made guns. Used guns don�t threaten them, because their core customers want custom guns made to their specs. Any gun made to fit someone else just doesn�t interest that core clientele.



I�m not sure to what you refer with �it�s�. If the �it is� refers to the price increases and/or the dropping of the bottom price point models, then �it�s� a solution for the sellers, even if �it is� a problem for the buyers of the guns.

I may be wrong but I�m getting the sense here that you believe the USA demand for low price point guns is a significant factor in the health of the Spanish gun makers. I don�t believe that�s the case, and the gun makers certainly don�t think so. That�s why Arrieta, Grulla, et. al. dropped the bottom price point side locks from their catalog. The makers clearly have decided they must exit the low price point markets here and in Europe to survive.

Kyrie, we're in the good old US of A, not Europe. No need to look farther than the advertisers on this website to establish the going price for an AyA #2 on this side of the pond. It's about $6,000, give or take a little--unless there are extra "bells and whistles". Straight off the Quality Arms website. Or scan the Cabela's Gun Library inventory. I just bought one from them, new in the box, tagged at $4700. If they were selling well here for $6,000, I doubt Cabela's would have lowered the price to that extent. But they try to sell them here for $9,000, and they'll have about as much luck as Kimber did with the Turkish-made Valier sidelocks for the same money (back then) as an AyA #2.

Bottom price point . . . you're obviously ignoring Ugartechea.

As for how well they'll do on the European market: Since there are decent used British sidelocks available over here for well under $9,000, and since they're usually less expensive in the UK than they are here, I'm thinking that banking on the Euro market may not be a good choice for them. I recall reading that at one time, AyA was the best-selling sxs in the UK. At $5K or so . . . new Spaniard or vintage Brit? The new gun from Spain might get the nod. At $9,000? I'm sure Dig can come up with one heck of a British sidelock for that money. Not a "best" . . . but then an AyA #2 isn't a best either. Nice enough gun, but it is their entry-level sidelock.

And you can do a bunch of custom work, including restock to fit, and still come out ahead of an entry level Spanish gun for $9K.

As for how small the market in this country is or isn't, not hard to poke around on Guns International and come up with a lot of in the box Spaniards awaiting a new home.

If things are that bad over there, then maybe joining the EU will spell the end of the Spanish trade. Too bad, but DIARM did them serious damage back 40 years or so.

We'll just have to whisper in Tony Galazan's ear that it's time for him to start making Holland-pattern sidelocks. His track record proves that he'll have buyers standing in line.

Kyrie, you present a lot of good and interesting analysis. It may not help the makers though. If the makers are already doing all they can, and they need to hold out for economic and currency swings, it may be risky to count on the market coming to them. I wouldn't be surprised if there would be ongoing competition in a changing economy. I think there has to be a real or strongly perceived value to increase sales.

Well, now. This discussion just took a bizarre turn.

John shared the current price AyA charges to make him, or you, or me a new, bespoke, AyA No 2.

You claim that price is wrong because of the prices you see on guns already here in the US. Do you really not understand those AyA No 2 guns here in the US are used and/or old and in all cases were someone else�s bespoke gun?

Never mind. I give up.

Bespoke. Pardon me while I bepuke.

The guns are ordered for 'stock'.

Dealers do as much business that way as they ever do ordering custom jobs for a specific customer.

Suppose there might be a price break on a quantity run of standard guns?

Old? The one I just bought was made in 2013, so not exactly ancient. And most of the ones John has, and I'm pretty sure all of the ones Cabela's has, weren't "bespoke" by anyone. Standard dimensions, barrel lengths, chokes, etc. That's been the Spanish market in this country pretty much forever. Buy one, modify as needed (shorten or lengthen stock, open chokes or install those evil screw-ins) and away you go. Works quite well for those who don't want to wait a long time to get exactly what they want . . . and maybe not get it anyhow. If the Spanish can't work with an "off the rack" market, then it is a wise move for them to abandon any thought of selling many guns in this country. Maybe they can make up for that by selling far fewer but more expensive guns. Or maybe not.

I�ll share my limited experience with Spanish shotguns. I only discovered Spanish shotguns in 2010 and when I first seen them I had to have one. First time purchase, wanted to order a �bespoke� hand crafted shotgun, so I went to the dealer, got all properly measured up, picked my options, and put my order in for a $5000 mid-grade gun with 50% down. Waited a few months to get the shotgun and when it arrived, I found it had no cast off as per my measurements and order. It was a disappointment for a once in a lifetime purchase of a custom shotgun. From my experience, I would never again bother with ordering another �bespoke� gun from Spain, what�s the point. From now on when I do buy another gun, I will buy something off the rack with dimensions that are close enough to fit me. At least when you are buying off the rack you can see and feel what you are buying. I don�t know what the problem is with the Spanish makers not getting the orders right, maybe the English language is too much of a barrier, and the specifications get lost in translation. Don�t get me wrong, I do like their shotguns, but no more �bespoke� guns for me. In my opinion, if someone orders a custom shotgun to set specifications, then as a gun manufacturer you better get it right, there is no excuse.

This whole story played out on a much smaller scale when I was in the business of importing French Darne shotguns.

It didn't end well. You can't buy a new one, in this country, today.

The only differences I can see from here, are, I never, ever, had (nor would I have tolerated) a complaint about incorrect dimensions on a delivered gun, including weight, any nonsense about improperly hardened steel, and I gave up on the notion of guns produced for "stock" pretty early on, since fit was so important.

The lower grades of guns in the Darne line all eventually did go away-the company was working off of inventory, and when the inventory of forged actions and bits was gone, it was going to be gone for good.

Better to sell an R17 over an R11, or a VHS instead of a V19.

So it goes with the Spanish, as well, I'm sure. I wish them and their US dealers all the luck in the world.


Best,
Ted