doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Altering Chokes

The allowable error of aim will be based on the radius of the pattern or how far it is from its center to the edge which still contains adequate density for a kill. Since the pattern diameters have been stated at 22" & 18" respectfully the permissible error of aim is half that or 11" vs 9" for a 2" difference.
In my humble opinion if one is getting a high percentage of more kills with a 22" spread than an 18" one they need to concentrate more on their shooting than finding a more open choke. As to the versatility I can't recall that I have ever shot a Spreader load in my entire life. At 15 yds about anything you can hit the bird with will kill it. You don't need to buy heavy loads or use Premium shot etc for this type of shooting. Also I do not go for super small shot for short range as that just puts an excessive number in what you shoot. A slight increase in shot size does not increase the mangling of the bird near as much as an increase in the number which hits it. There are only about 10 more pellets in 3/4oz of #8's than 1/2oz of #9's but the former is certainly a far more versatile load.

Even if we only look at the radius of the pattern to determine the aiming error/allowance, a 22" pattern will still have 22% more error/allowance than an 18" pattern.

Exactly right, which is what we should be looking at, as you put it. Not at a 50% increase in total area, that is if we are trying to evaluate our increased chance at hitting a target by opening choke constriction.

Miller, that is what I meant exactly, with the exception of my dumb error of stating the actual 2" increased radius as 4".

SRH

You can't use the entire area at once, but you can use the entire area IN EVERY DIRECTION--up, down, left, right. So no matter which direction you're off, the additional area helps. Take a compass, stick the point either end of your 18" diameter line running through your IC pattern, extend it 2", draw a ring around your 18" pattern--turning it into a 22" diameter pattern. Thus compensating for a small aiming error no matter where you make it.

The other advantage you get is that if you use the same shot charge to produce both patterns, the cylinder pattern is significantly less dense. Less chance to blow up a woodcock at 13 yards. And remember, if the AVERAGE 1st barrel kill is 13 yards, some are going to be even closer than that. Sure, you can go with a lighter shot charge in your IC choke, which gives you a less dense pattern at closer range--but then you start to lose the advantage IC gives you over cylinder for longer shots, because you cease to have an effective pattern out at ranges like 30 yards, where IC should still be effective. But only if you don't go with really light loads to give you a less dense pattern for closer shots.

Just found this on the Chuckhawks site:

"Most quality chokes today are of the �conical parallel variety,� meaning we have a tapered conical section that gives us the desired constriction or squeezing effect on the payload, followed by a straight section that is parallel with the bore, containing no taper. After the initial forcing cone area, the parallel section tends to align and stabilize the payload before it exits the muzzle. It is this parallel section, particularly an extended parallel section, which has typically given the best patterns with heavier payloads, larger shot and steel or no-tox shot. "

and

"By closing the fingers in an attempt to give more choke effect, it creates a steeper taper. After that taper, there is no parallel section, out of the muzzle flies our shot cloud. Rather than a conical-parallel type of choke system, the Poly-Choke is actually a �conical only� choke, with a conical section the same length at all times, but varying taper. I believe is it the complete lack of a parallel section that contributes to the poor performance I experienced in the course of this review."

Fellow by the name of Randy Wakeman wrote it. He claims that he spent lots of time and money on the subject.

Since trimming a barrel back effectively eliminates the parallel section Mr. Wakeman is writing about, there is a good chance my "bobbed" barrel will shoot less cohesive patterns.

I still agree with Miller's statement. He stated above ........ "In my humble opinion if one is getting a high percentage of more kills with a 22" spread than an 18" one they need to concentrate more on their shooting than finding a more open choke."

I totally agree with that. It's just like when I shot a lot of billiards in my younger days. I laid off pool, shot snooker for about a year, regularly, and it made a heckuva better nine ball player out of me. Same principle.

SRH

Woops . . . ghost of my geometry teacher spoke to me in my sleep. What I described there doesn't work. You stick the point of the compass in the midpoint of the 18" diameter line, extend it 11" rather than the 9" radius, then draw a ring around the pattern. What you end up with is a ring, 2" wide, surrounding the 18" pattern. That's the extra area covered by the 22" pattern. But in terms of area covered, it does give you an additional 50%. It's just that it's all on the periphery.

Everyone can work at shooting better. But in the meantime, until they become the second coming of Digweed, they will benefit from larger patterns. Especially true on birds often shot at very close range, like woodcock--because even if they don't need the additional pattern spread to hit the bird, it's less likely to destroy the bird. And yes, I have destroyed woodcock with an IC choke.

As for the effectiveness of cylinder on birds at somewhat longer range (20 yards plus average kills), I submit Mr. Sisley's season total of more than 30 grouse with a shooting average pushing 80%. Please raise your hand if you've shot at least a couple dozen grouse in a season with a percentage approaching that. Assuming they're not sitting on limbs or picking grit along the road when you pull the trigger.

You still don't get it, Larry. They WON'T get better, at least not to their full potential. Tightening up patterns has proven to work for shooters to improve their shooting. I plateaued at sporting clays until I quit trying to match the choke to the distance and presentation and shot nothing but modified choke at everything. My scores immediately began to improve and I began winning. There is nothing special about my experience. It works universally. There are just entirely too many huntress who are not willing to put in the effort necessary to learn to shoot better, so they use no, or very little, choke as an excuse. Nothing wrong with matching the choke to the game bird and the situation, heck, that's the sensible thing to do. But, don't expect your game shooting to get better by shooting open chokes all the time. Going through lots of shells only takes you so far.

SRH

Amen Stan. +100

So Stan . . . that explains why the really good skeet shooters shoot modified chokes? In fact, it only makes sense to match your choke to the TYPICAL shot you're going to take AND are capable of hitting, whether you're talking hunting or target shooting. McIntosh understood quite well--as a fairly well-traveled instructor in Fieldsport's wingshooting schools, and as a participant in a number of hunts involving a broad cross-section of hunters--that most hunters are over-choked. Either for the shots they're getting or for the shots they're capable of making. Or both.

We've previously discussed the "effort" necessary to improve, which--if you're going to shoot very much, and especially if you don't live near any gun clubs, or are maybe limited to trap--can also involve a fair amount of expense. Sometimes I think people with enough money to buy relatively expensive guns and burn a lot of ammo, and with a sporting clays club or two in fairly close proximity, think everyone's in the same boat with them. I sometimes wonder whether a lot of people slept through the last several years' worth of the American economy. Prices have gone up while middle class income has remained stagnant, which means--for a whole lot of people--they're going just as fast or faster than they used to, while falling further behind. At our club in Wausau, if you're a member--and membership is cheap enough that if you shoot very much at all, you're money ahead--you can shoot 100 sporting clays for less than $17. On a typical Monday evening, we probably have 12-15 shooters. Where I lived in Iowa, I had no sporting clays facilities in close proximity. The nearest trap and skeet club was about 25 miles. Which meant that while I shot a fair amount of skeet, most of the SC shooting I did was when I traveled somewhere for a sxs shoot.

Not that much of the above has a lot to do with the use of cylinder by upland hunters, who were McIntosh's target audience in his article. Clearly not aimed--for the umpteenth time--at target shooters. Which you can tell because he doesn't talk about target shooting.