doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Altering Chokes

Stallones: Very interesting that you make such a distinction between clays and birds. I believe that's a "first" for me. And, even though I haven't considered it before, I have to strongly agree. My primary use of this particular firearm (as with all my guns) will be on game. Clays for me have always been tune-up for the real thing. Fun to shoot, but too-clinical for my tastes to invest much more time in. I don't doubt that I would have benefitted from doing more, but there was always a time and money component that kept me focused elsewhere.

0.10 in a 16 would be fine for all-season grouse/WC here in Maine. That is saying something.

Choke configuration does matter. One .010s may be better than another.

Regarding use of open/no/almost no chokes (whatever the heck MM meant by that) for everything, there may be a better way to guarantee you will never develop as a SC shooter...but right now I can't think of one. That was one of the most poorly considered pieces any shotgun writer ever put on paper. Using only open chokes is like betting against yourself, encourages such things as shooting twice at the close target, and provides fallacious input to the brain by way of misses on distant targets that were correctly pointed. You can groove and break a 40 yd target with a .005 12 ga often enough to convince yourself it can be done. But this is no way to develop in SC. Of course, to know this last part is true one would need to actually pattern at distance. I suspect MM did not pattern much, if at all.

I am 100% with Stan on this.

Sam

Two great resources on this topic:

Sporting Shotgun Performance, Dr. A.C. Jones
The Mysteries of Shotgun Patterns, George Oberfell & Charles Thompson

Both books do a good job put some quantitative analysis into this subject and dismiss various wives tales along the way.

Oberfell & Thompson tested five different shells out of the same gun and found an 11% variation in patterns (70-81% at 40 yards). So the shell in the chamber is as relevant as the constriction at the end of the barrel when thinking about this stuff.

I did a lot of Quail hunting(wild south Texas Birds) with a friend who used only cylinder bore. He was as good a shot as I who was using .012-.015 chokes in my F. Zanotti double 12. There was a noticeable difference in wounded and dead birds. After a couple of years he gave the gun away to a friend and bought a nice Parker reproduction 20 with chokes.

Stan wrote, "IME, it is mostly trial and error, Lloyd. The "formulas" for really nice patterns are few and far between. A pattern plate is really a good investment, if one is concerned about getting nice patterns out of one's gun(s). What works in one won't necessarily give the same results out of the next (seemingly) identical gun.

Very true and I have used my pattern board to identify some very good and consistent patterns,

I have had some success improving my patterns by using different reloading recipes. Spreader devices, harder/softer shot or a buffering agents can make a
remarkable difference in pattern performance.
My hunting buddy bought a Parker 16 Ga, mfg. in 1917. The guns chokes measured a tight Full and a tight Mod.
We went back to the old way using card and fiber wads + low antimony shot. That combo was pretty good, but still a little tight for his shooting distances. Then, we used two OS cards, cut slits about 3/4 of the way through each card and put them together in an X shape with the shot dispersed equally between the petals. The chokes opened to IC and Mod. RMC all brass hulls were the hull of choice and albeit slow to load, wonderful patterns were produced.

McIntosh was not the only writer who thought highly of cylinder bore. Bob Brister had very positive comments to make about "no choke" as well, although he also touted the value of a whole lot of choke for long shots. But if you're hunting upland birds and you're only average to slightly better with a scattergun, cylinder isn't a bad choice. It should pattern 70% at 25 yards (same as full at 40 yards), and with some work at the pattern board and proper shell selection, you can certainly make cyl work out to 30 yards. I'm talking bird hunting here, not sporting clays or trap. Most people simply aren't good enough, or even close, that they should be taking 40+ yard shots at birds. They'll be very lucky to deliver a killing shot at that distance. In fact, the best thing would probably be a miss, because all too often a few feathers get pulled and the bird keeps flying.

It's harder to get the necessary experience hunting wild birds these days because of declining populations, but if people spent a fraction of the amount of time with a decent dog learning how to hunt upland birds, they'd find that they'd seldom need 40 yard shooting skills. Most of the time, 30 will get the job done.

For those that want to read the entire McIntosh article: "More Things We Can Do Without", Shooting Sportsman, Sept/Oct 2010. But to summarize, McIntosh points out that choke isn't as necessary these days because of modern ammunition, primarily the plastic wad. Remember when, in a 12ga, standard choke constrictions went by .010" intervals--and full was .040 constriction? It's a good bit more open than that today, thanks mostly to improvements in shotshells. Thus, cylinder today isn't cylinder from a century or more ago, with black powder or early bulk smokeless and cork or fiber wads. But McIntosh makes it clear that he's focusing mainly on upland hunters, pointing out that turkey hunters and those who shoot waterfowl at long range need more choke.

I think highly of cylinder bore myself, where it is needed. I just do not find myself gunning in very many situations where cylinder is called for.

Kinda like Quigley said of the Colt .................. "I said I never had much use for one. Never said I didn't know how to use it."

Never particularly gave any more significance to what writers say than anyone else, either. They're just better at putting what they don't know into words.

SRH

Much confusion concerning chokes is caused by the shooting community's acceptance of expedient, if incorrect, definitions of choke. Thus we see choke tube makers making hay not just with .005 (sometimes less) incremental tubes, but also with fallacious nomenclature assigned to each increment. There is, factually, no such thing as a "mod" choke tube or section. Mod is a performance, defined as a specific percentage at 40 yds.

The .010 16 ga could quite possibly give mod choke, depending on ammo. It also could give a skeet pattern.

The McIntosh foolishness is in full bloom (no pun) on pp 120-121 of 'Shotguns and Shooting'. Chapter is titled 'Practical Chokes'. He describes with great clarity long-distance ("just a hair over 50 yds") grooving with guns having "little or no choke" (he means constriction). The interesting thing concerning this section is that his observations are quite believable. It is his conclusions that are so precisely incorrect and detrimental.

Like Stan, I am not knocking cyl/skeet/IC for all purposes. This goes in spades when we are talking of 12s.

Sam

Totally agree, Larry. I would bet a fair bit that the vast majority of shot and recovered birds are taken at 30 yards or less, probably more like 20.

I don't understand the focus on 40-50 yard shots when almost nobody can make such shots with any consistency in the field. And even if a guy can stone a pheasant at 50 yards, I hope he's got a good dog to dig it out of the cattails.

For the 90+% of the population without both the skills to hit 50 yard shots and the dogs to recover them (I count myself part of this population), using open chokes and getting close to the birds sounds like decent advice.

A couple comments: When I said I opened chokes; I was referring to a Parker repro 28" 28 Gauge that was choked over 40/1000ths
in the "full" barrel. I opened it up to 15/1000.
For me, and only for me, a very average shooter; that was much better. For me; I thought 42/1000ths in a 28 Ga barrel just waay too much. I don't open them up to Cylinder, as I think a bit of choke works a lot better..at least for me.
Larry, I agree with you.....You and I both know about guys who talk about those 300 yard to 400 yard shots on deer, when the guy who was with them says "Maybe 125 to 150 yards."
I just don't take 40 yard shots at birds; having been raised by a wonderful old shooter who would say "What the h**l did you take that shot for?" (He also had a wonderful bird dog.)
Sam Ogle, Lincoln, NE