doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com When to restore and or modify?

chuck: both those guns look wonderful. enjoy!

On a Brit gun, factory records often are unavailable. Even on the Army & Navy pair I had, when I got all the records from the University of Glasgow, I had no idea about the original chokes--since choke isn't marked on Brit guns. Both were 005 in the R; #1 was O15 in the L, #2 was 040. Pretty sure #2 was original because you can't get much tighter than that. But after patterning it and knowing I wasn't going to use it for turkeys or waterfowl but rather for upland birds, I had it opened to 025. Which does not require reproof under Brit rules. For that matter, on a Brit gun, I don't have much of a problem if it's been submitted for reproof--which tells me it's been shot with proof loads more recently than when it was "original". So that's OK with me too. And if the barrels have been reblacked, which is done quite commonly over there, what's the big deal if it's been done well? No big deal to me.

It's nice that my vintage Lancaster is still 2 1/2" and the bores are still within proof for a 12 bore (by a significant margin), but it would not have been a deal breaker for me by any means if it had been honed to the point that it had passed reproof as a 12/1--assuming sufficient barrel wall thickness.

On the subject of chokes...when most of these vintage guns were made, nobody had ever thought of using a shotcup. With the advent of Remington's Power Piston shotcup system in the early 1960s, everything changed. Full and "rifle-full' chokes existed because of all the variables induced into any shotshell by the felt and fiber wadding used in all the commercially available ammunition of that era. Shorter forcing cones were also a result of the type of ammunition that was available at that time. With modern ammunition, you don't need the more abrupt forcing cone to stabilize the shot collumn and you certainly don't need that extra choke at the muzzle to guarentee a full pattern at distence.

When you combine modern ammunition with abrupt forcing cones and super-full chokes you get two undesirable results; fairly sharp-recoil and largely ineffective patterns at the ranges you would normally be shooting at game in the uplands.

When you send a bespoke gun to the maker, or a craftsman approved by the maker, it comes back fixed but looking untouched. That is the wonder of high class work.

Americans seem obsesses with "factory original". in these pages are posts marking down a Browning Superposed for not having the original butt plate. For us that is strange. Regulating the stock and chokes is part of making the gun truly personal. Look at classifieds in old English magazines and invariably they mention altering the USED shotguns offered for sale to suit the buyer. If it is not fitted and choked to suit, it will not do the job. Collector value is irrelevant to a shooting gun and in any case, legitimate alterations should not diminish value.

My feelings are guns are tools some have an extremely high price but are tools none the less. Now if you want your tools to last and work properly you do have to look after them to a reasonable standard that includes repairing them if something should go wrong. So taking this to its final conclusion the more you use a tool the more service and repair it will need until repairing surpasses the point that it is not economical to do so and its useful life has come to an end. Now the only way in reality is to purchase your extremely expensive tool and not use it and in that way it will stay in the same condition as it left the manufacturer but where is the true reward in that I ask?
Maybe one day you will be able to purchase guns preserved in aspic if that is what people want but not me!!!!
Buy them use them service them and in doing so enjoy them!!!

Few men admit their mistakes as freely as Chuck and I admire his doing so. If more men were to admit that they had ruined such broken classics and do so as well, then perhaps the stigma of refinishing or up grading could be forgiven. Five hail marys for you sins Chuck.

Thank you father Jon. I fired 5 (at least) 20 ga shells out of that Ithaca at passing birds I cleanly missed. (musta been the non kosher case color tone)

Chuck: Beautiful.
May your sins continue in this manner.

Sam Ogle

A lot of good comments here. I agree with Shotgunlover about Americans' obsession with original condition. According to the Gun Value book published annually, 95%+ of the guns sold each year in this country are not in collectible condition. So why not change or upgrade as you like. If it is done well you might even get some of your money back if you sell. I have a couple of Foxes that are restocked. They were pretty useless originally, and certainly not collectors. Now they are nice handling pheasant killers!

I oike functional shooters, and if the finish is a bit worn, well I'll fix it at times, but I'm not about to spend thousands of dollars on a gun that I want to hunt hard with just so it looks original.
The majority of my guns would not have their value increased by a full restoration, bit certainly do with proper repair to make them shooters again.
That being said, my treasured Westley Richards is getting the complete going through next year for my 60th birthday.
it's not going back to England however, I have a good friend that is going to do it for me.
The fact that it was at one time rebarreled ( and the barrels cut as well) with W. Richards barrels does not make it any less valuable in my eyes, it fits perfectly and I have killed more birds with it using black powder loads than any other gun I own.
Davide