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Stan
You're self control is high. I'm not going to make it thru this one

Last edited by Chuck H; 09/19/13 08:33 AM.
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Chuck: Who reloads for your animated icon? It's not that old guy I shoot with Thursdays is it?

Stan: "The Collected Works of Miller" would sell well. A very practical guy who knows his stuff.

Miller: We appear to disagree. Which is unusual.

Greener: Most perfect patterns I ever saw. Rocketman would likely say they are too good to be true.

Skeetx: I read your edit and quote of the Polychoke guy. The full choke patterns from a (very) long and rough barrel makes perfect sense.

1. The length means the shot is no longer under acceleration by pressure behind the wad.
2. The roughness slows down the pellets in contact with the bore, elongating the shot charge. Same result as a choked barrel, different method.

G. T. Garwood: If you're an engineeer, show me your train.

A small post script. I'm currently using an ultralight load in an old Parker damascus barrel set. This is a 28" skeet choked barrel (about .003).

The load is 12.9 grains of AA Lite behind 7/8 oz. This is a very fast powder, and a very low charge weight. It chronographs 980 fps.

If there ever was a load that would provide acceleration only to a point short of the muzzle and should exhibit tightening of the pattern from the effects we've been discussing here, this should be it.

Alas, it still throws a skeet pattern.




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Had vowed to never respond to a thread with a title IN ALL CAPS, but can't help myself.

The Winchester-Western Mark 5 with a polyethylene shot collar (not wad) was introduced March 1962. These images are at 1/2,000,000 sec of the ejecta of a Mark 5 Super Trap load from a full choke M12. At 36" the ejecta with the collar does appear to have fewer fliers and a slightly shorter shot string



which was advertised as producing a 10% 'better' pattern



The Remington one piece 'Power Piston' polyethylene wad was introduced in 1963 for target loads. Some argued that roughening the choke segment would 'retard the wad' so it wouldn't run into the shot column. These images at 1/1,000,000 sec. clearly show the wad rapidly falling behind the shot column. Unfortunately, I couldn't fine the original reference.



SO
1. protecting the shot from abrasion/flattening is a good thing
2. air resistance adequately retards the wad.

And per Greener, polishing the bore may improve the pattern for non-shot cup protected shot.


Please note: I freely concede that others here are brighter, better looking, have more valuable shotguns, and have killed more birds behind better dogs; therefore in responding please consider Proverbs 18:2 and try to be helpful.

Last edited by Drew Hause; 09/21/13 04:11 PM.
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I am of the bellief that a certain load will work better in a particular gun that others will, that is why I use them.
However, to roughen up a bore or intentionally pitting it to try and change the pattern is complete lunacy to me, and it's not the only things that has been professed in the past by people who knew no better or thought they did and could sell either an article to a magazine or something else they manufactured

How about shooting the gun with a load that works well with it to improve your scores?
THAT would be a bigger help than trying something that would ruin a bore and degrade a gun, but that's just my opinion.....
DT


Of course I have shot all my vintage guns - what do you think they are called SHOT guns for??!!
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Originally Posted By: Shotgunjones
This 'retard the wad' urban myth is, well, retarded.

Think about it.

There's positive pressure all the way up the barrel, even at exit.
The pressure is behind the wad, and the whole payload is accelerating right up to muzzle exit
How can you 'retard' (slow down) the wad and still accelerate the shot?


Think about it??? Are you crazy? Think about it on this board?? You get a Gold Star For the Day for not having studied physics at Hogwarts.

Now if you could just quit w/ that venturi effect for chokes you'd be way cool.

have a day

Dr.WtS


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OH wait. It's not venturi at all is it?

It's a simple vector problem, whereby the edge pellets are given an inward vector by the choke taper.

That's it. No matter the huge mass of shot inboard of the edge pellets that appear to be in the way.


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Originally Posted By: Shotgunjones
OH wait. It's not venturi at all is it?

It's a simple vector problem, whereby the edge pellets are given an inward vector by the choke taper.

That's it. No matter the huge mass of shot inboard of the edge pellets that appear to be in the way.



OMG!!!! Someone understands. STAGGERING!! And they poke out the front of the column because there is no place else to go.

Double Gold Star for you today!! Actually you really deserved the Double for the "wad stripper as BS" comments anyway.

have a day

Dr.WtS

Last edited by Wonko the Sane; 09/22/13 09:12 PM.

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And this is different from a venturi, how?

FAAQ! There goes my double star...


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Originally Posted By: Shotgunjones
And this is different from a venturi, how?

FAAQ! There goes my double star...




The pressure in the constriction of a venturi .......?

The pressure in the compressed shot charge in a choke ......?
(Hint - hard shot deform less in a full choke)

The velocity of the fluid in a venturi ......?

The velocity of the shot charge in a choke ......?



Yes, you lose the Double but you have at least a good start.

have a day

Dr.WtS


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