doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Winchester 21 assembly / general questions

In 1967 after owning and shooting most of the American double makes I knew I wanted a new gun and ordered a new model 21-20.
Now 42 years of shooting and an easy 100k plus though it,it is still going strong.This includes all of my upland and skeet plus Mexico and South America,plus most of my duck shooting.

What a pleasure it has been.

My K 80 trap which I got new in 1994 has over 200k rounds through it, so how many shells have you experts put through your guns.

AC

I am not an expert, but I put through 4 boxes yesterday.

OK, Mr Holier than Thou.
He and I knew it was kidding around and don't really care what it sounded like to you. Also don't care if you've had enough or not. No one is trying to force you to like the 21, so get over yourself.

Nothing. Unless you actually shoot your guns....alot....and consider hitting important. It was a revelation for me - went 100 straight for the first time with my first M-21 (12ga). I hadn't done that before, let alone with a SxS.

So yes, they are special.

Sam

I like the barrel stop too, which I believe is unique. I like that it will hold the barrels with the forearm removed. And I like the bolt depth adjustment screw.

Not critcizing anyone else's favored double - certainly not Miller's hallowed Lefevers - but the 21 design is simple, efficient, rugged. Mediocre? Pretty cranky opinion I think.

Jay

8-Bore;
I appreciae your input here. Some good points made in a true effort to state the high points of a 21.
First, for all involved, let me make two points here, First I have never claied to be an "Expert", only one who has opinions & second I have never said a 21 was a "Bad" gun.
Now to your points; as to the bbl stop, I have not really done a lot of study on this as to all the types which have been used. Bbl stops were of course in use for more than half a century prior to the 21 being built. A very effecient, yet simple one, using no moving parts was patented in 1872 by F S Dangerfield & used for about 25+ yrs thereafter by D M Lefever. I certaimly would not claim it as the best, but one would have to get up early in the morn & search all day to find a better one.
The best feature of the dovetail chopper lump is it does not require a high heat for joining. The same is true of a mono-block. Winchester seems to have got around the oft stated "Fault" of the dovetail CL requiring a wide bbl spacing by simply moving the dovetail down from the breech where the natural bbl taper gave adequate room for it. At least I have never noticed the 21 being particularly wider than others. I think perhaps this was a fault of the BSA which had earlier employed this joining.
One fault of either chopper-lump method is that the lugs by necessity are made of the same mat'l as the bbls. When made seperately the lugs can be made of a higher carbon steel than desirable for the bbls (and usually were), thus giving a more wear resistant steel. Parker probably had a one-up on this with the replacable wear plate.
Improvements in steel had I think made the coil spring design more feasibale than had been the case in the past. My very first double was a pre WWI J Stevens model 325 which likewase had a coil spring action, with the lock work very similar to that of a 21. After some 40 yrs they did go soft & would often fail to fire the shell & had to be replaced. The frame itself was a straight backed box look which very much resembled a flat side 21. A little frame sculpting & breaking up the flat back does wonders for a dbl-gun frame in the eyes of many, myself included. I always called that old J Stevens my "Pore-Boy 21" see I knew about the 21 way back in the 50's. I was well aware of the 21 long before I ever even heard of a Lefever other than a NS, but as soon as I learned about the Real Lefevers I began lusting for one.
The bolting itself is essentially the Scott Spindle with a single bolt which came about in the 1860's. Nothing new or spectacular there, but for what ever its worth I have on several occasions used the noted strength of the 21, along with the Parker, to point out that one good solid bolt is suffecient to holsd a break open gun shut. Mulitiple bolts are for the most part EyeWash unless "Exceptionally Well" fitted.
Bottom line is the 21 is a "Good" solid gun, but its a "LONG WAY" from being the Finest in the World.
Sam;
Its great you were able to hit 100 straight with yours first time out. Any individuals ability to shoot a given gun on a given day however does not automatically translate into that anyone else will do the same. I will have to say that over the past 50+ yrs my ability to hit with any gun can not be directly related to what I would consider its intrinsic value. I have shot some fairly cheap guns excellently & some much more expensive ones poorly. That of course is totally beside the point as is the collector value of anything to its actual quality.
Don't know if they still do or not, but early Mickey Mouse watches were at one point bringing exorbitant prices, it certainly wasn't based on their Fine Multi-Jeweled Swiss Movements.

The Model 21 is definitely NOT "another" boxlock. Its coil spring action is way more reliable than a V powered Anson action. Having had a number of V spring failures I can vouch for the superiority of coils over Vs.

Its round bolting is also interesting. I have talked to Italian makers who inists that a round bolt is destined to shoot loose, yet the Mod 21 does not. Neither do the Horsley guns and they too have round bolts. Engineering wise the round bolt is theoretically superior to the Purdey underbolt.

The puzzle for me is the slabsided action. It could have been made round, like a Westley Richards with no real effort. Guess it must have been the style of that time, or it was in tune with the slab sided mod 94.

2-Piper. You still have not convinced me that the 21 is not among the finest in the world.
IMO, the M21 took great attributes of other fine doubles of the time and improved upon them, making the toughest double ever. This, combined with the American spirit and rugged beauty put into every 21 is why the 21 is at the top of my list.

My last purchase was a Mod 21 Trap Grade....and I admit that I was never a big fan of the 21, however after shooting my share of ducks with it over the last couple of months I think I understand what the fuss is all about....is it the finest?? I wouldnt go that far but I found myself reaching into the vault for it the last few times I headed for the duck blind

Best

CJ

BTW...if anyone has a full lenght stock the may want to part with please let me know

Thanks

Is the stock on your 21 numbered to the gun (original)?

How much more length do you need?

Adding black spacers does not look all that bad.