doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Do we need choke?

Choke is a performance, not a constriction. We do need choke, but we may not need as much constriction as in the days before shotcups.

I ran some 12 ga 1 1/16 oz B&Ps through a cyl M-21 barrel on paper. They gave something between IC and LM patterns. Not shabby. This helped me understand why I did reasonably well for many years using cyl and good factory traploads.

Payload matters. Alot. What one can do with a good B&P 1.25 oz load through that 12 with .000 is one thing. Trying to find a use for a 1/2 oz .410, or 3/4 oz 28, through .000 is another. How useless? Well, at 20 yds you will not reliably break a centered clay with the .410 and #9s. Nor will you reliably tag a centered grouse or WC with the 28 and US #8s. Sometimes you will, sometimes you won't.

Then, I haven't tried B&Ps through my .000 28.

IIRC, MM was discussing subgauge light loads and 50 yd targets. I know you can groove a repetitive long target and hit with a tiny effective pattern. But I don't understand the point of such an exercise, as you would never deliberately do this in competition. Nor would one possessing ethics do so in the field.

Sam

Choke is good, and Sam has nailed it. The very best shooters who seldom shoot a target w/o centering it can do remarkable things w/ no choke at all thanks to the hot core of any pattern. Choke can effectively increase effective pattern as range grows, but this is heavily dependent upon matching load and choke.

The plastic shot cup as changed the game for sure - tighter patterns from barrels w/ no constriction with quality loads - but the value of choke is still there at the longer ranges. Whether one should be shooting game that far is another matter altogether.

Pete,

Are you referencing the article MM wrote several years ago for SSM, or a later article that I am not aware of? He used to post from time to time on this forum, and after he wrote the article in SSM several years ago stating that "choke is obsolete" I took that statement and article to task here and there were MANY on here who defended his statement. It is probably too far back in history to find with a search, but I remember it well.

Anyone who has the arrogance to state in print that, because of today's high quality loads, choke is obsolete is a narrow minded individual most likely just trying to stir the pot and get attention. Ask the top Master class sporting competitors, or the turkey hunters, or the pass shooting dove man, or the duck man who is not setting the ducks down in his decoys, or the FITASC competitor, ad nauseum, if choke is obsolete. And when they ask you if you are crazy, be SURE to tell them they must be wrong because Michael McIntosh said so, if you want a big laugh.

The most preposterous statement I ever remember reading in SSM.

I'm going to go back now and try to find that article.

Stan

MM must be getting delirious from breathing the rarified air in that ivory tower he lives in.

Choke is not obsolete, just over valued!

Stan,

I refer to the article in the September/October issue of "Shooting Sportsman" titled "More Things WE Can Do Without".
I believe I read the same thing in a book by MM about 7 or 8 years ago.

Pete

Modern loads do seem to perform better than those of the Victorians, though plastic cup wads do not necessarily out-pattern felt wads, according to some recent research. It underlines the usefulness of patterning your gun with loads you propose to use. However, experience quickly tells me the range at which a given gun and load is performing and when it is time to haul in the range at which shots are taken or push it out.

Personally, I shoot a lot of 'high' game birds with very little choke using 30g of No.6 shot. However, when shooting bigger, tougher birds like geese, it helps to tighten the choke, up the payload and go down a few shot sizes.

I think most people use more choke than they need and heavier loads than they need when shooting game.

Certainly small bore guns with light payloads need tight choking if a killing pattern is to be delivered at range. One just needs to understand what is going on and be pragmatic rather than dogmatic.

My SXS 16ga. has two chokes....light and tight...(-: IC/Full, Few escape its wrath...Wild Kansas pheasants require good solid hits, with one down and one fleeing fast choke is a wonderfull thing! IC/F is even good for sporting clays too. I have found that proper choke matched to the range of the target is a must for best resalts! Example...Are clubs sporting clays corse has a fair mix of presintations. If I shoot IC/M for all stations my score will be about the same as if shot them all with M/F chokes give or take a couple targets. If I taylor the choke to the presintation my scores go up noticably. Proper choke is very important. Paterns can also be altered by load type. While testing a Fox SXS 16 one load realy filled the circle at 40 yards??? I tor down this load and found a solid wad cup with no verticle slits. This load is a factory Noble sport hunting 16ga load. Don't use this load for early grouse! Thanks all Kenny Graft SXS ohio....(-:

i noticed that english manufacturers seem to offer "1350+fps" 'super, tall, extreme,....' loads even in 65mm case. typical englishman must be able to endure recoil energy like a sandbag.

Jager, you have to remember that when it comes to velocity, Brits and Americans are--once more--"two peoples divided by a common language". 1350 fps would be velocity at the muzzle. What we commonly call "muzzle velocity" in the States is actually the velocity 3 feet from the muzzle--and there's a significant difference between the two. Example: A 1 1/8 oz load of 6's, with a listed American MV of 1250 fps, has a TRUE MV of 1348 fps--just about what you gave for those Brit loads. And for your typical American pheasant hunter, that particular load would definitely be on the light side of what most shoot.