doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Need help with ID JP Sauer

Geno, you just lost something in the translation on that last post. The basic "West German Sauer" exported to the States was the Model 60. What we call it, in view of the fact that there are hundreds (if not thousands) of them floating around in this country, may not be that important to you, on the far side of the former Iron Curtain, but it is to us on this side of the Atlantic. To say that they have "nothing in common with West German Sauers" only confuses the vast majority of those who read this BB--who happen to be Americans. Post-war Model 60's ARE West German Sauers. Stoeger, the American importer, also attached the name "Gamecock" to the basic Bernardelli sxs. They may not have been called that in Italy, but they're still Gamecocks to Americans.

Not to throw a curve into the Model 60 discussion, but that is what I thought I had for quite a while. Mine is a scroll engraved (no ducks) 16 ga extractor gun dated 3/52 with side clips and cocking indicators. The frame is not scalloped and it is an Eckernforde gun. May not have been an American market gun since the pad is inscripted with the Ramstein Rod and Gun Club legend. Never saw one of the plain jane models with side clips, but this one is so equipped. What do you think?
Jorge

Jorge, the Model 60 as pictured in the 1961 Stoeger catalog did not have sideclips, but the Royal did. I'm guessing what you have is a gun sold on Ramstein back in the 50's, which was either a pre-Model 60 version or a slightly different version of the same basic gun, just not made for export. I ordered a Beretta BL (I think -4) OU through a military rod & gun club in Spain in the early 70's. The versions they sold had sling swivels, which were missing on the ones exported to the States. I'm guessing pretty much the same story with your gun.

Larry,
Mine has sling swivels and the crossbolt which I neglected to mention in my earlier post. Most Royals that I have seen over here are lacking the cheekpiece and wear beavertail forends. In fact I owned one of those at one time, but couldn't warm up to the beavertail or the lack of swivels and the cheekpiece. I'm one of those loonies who likes the Continental accouterments.
Jorge

Who cares do I care or don't.
As a man tends to be gun expert you have to know mod.60, Royal, Knockabout etc given to Sauer guns by importers, not by the maker, feel the difference. Also as gun expert you have to enlighten public.

Sharing knowledge is a good thing. Spewing out a bad attitude is not. Now, mind you, that's only my opinion, I could be wrong.

Geno, I don't accept the title of "expert". However, when the American importer of West German Sauers called the guns "Model 60's" and "Royals", that's what Americans are going to understand. What they might have been called somewhere else is mostly relevant if the owner happened to buy it somewhere else. And chances are, he probably bought it in the United States.

Jorge, I too like swivels. Cheekpieces I can take or leave. I've seen Royals with both splinters and BT's. The 61 Stoeger book shows a splinter and does not mention a BT, and it says double triggers only. ST and BT must've come along later, because I've certainly seen Royals with both.

Larry,
This is what I love about this forum. I learn something new and useful practically every day. I never would have dreamed that a splinter forend DT Royal existed. You have made my day. I've been scratching my head for over 20 years trying to figure out where this gun fit into the 1950's Sauer lineup.
Thanks again and best regards,
Jorge

Jorge, always glad to help. However, I don't think you have a Royal--or at least not as they were imported in 1961. The Royal in the Stoeger catalog does have sideclips and cocking indicators as well as swivels and a cheekpiece, but ejectors were standard and the receiver is scalloped. Sounds like you have a German model that was somewhere in between the Royal and the 60.

I have been selling Sauers recently imported from Sweden. I've seen about every boxlock you can think of. Only one gun I saw was loose, and that was an early fifties boxlock with no crossbolt. The guns that I have seen marked Eckenforde were also clearly marked Made in Germany. The east german guns are marked GDR from the mid sixties on. I've given up trying to identify a model number. I just put the proof date on them unless they are from Eckenforde. Then I identify them as West German.

My preference in these guns is alway the guns made in the 1930s. Their balance is superior and the fit and finish is nicer, as well as their engraving. Early fifties guns are almost as nice, no matter which side of the fence they were made on. By the mid seventies, Merkels, Sauers and Simsons all look so much alike that the only way to tell them apart is to read the names on the barrels. They all look like Merkels.