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#162284 09/28/09 02:28 AM
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ArnoldB Offline OP
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http://www.quanticoshootingclub.com/downloads/Shotgun_Mishap_with_signatures.pdf
Anyone got any more info on this, as in others blowing up?

ArnoldB #162292 09/28/09 06:50 AM
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This particualar case is currently being discussed heavily on other boards. The matter is not very clear (yet), and the QSC inside report does not seem overly objective IMHO.
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Jani

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The 28 page investigation was not intended to be a technical study, and wasn't. The prime suspect in the case, in my opinion, would be the two piece AAHS shell and its detachable base wad. The shells were claimed to have been loaded in AA unibody cases. ONE was examined.

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Seems as if three CG shotguns this year blew up. In this report CG is blaming a AA reload, loaded on a PW loader. Guess time will tell who was at fault.

M.L.

ArnoldB #162316 09/28/09 10:49 AM
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The report is an attempt to explain the unexplainable.

It does not.


"The price of good shotgunnery is constant practice" - Fred Kimble
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ML - I must have missed something. Where did CG blame the shell and reloader?

tudurgs #162325 09/28/09 02:06 PM
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ML, you must be reading another report. Guerini has nothing to do with the Quantico report. To be honest, I suspect that an ammunition problem contributed to the blowup, but the report does not address that.

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ML is probably refering to WesLang's reply to that report, he appears to be the president of Caesar Guerini USA.
Quote:
Caesar Guerini USA has made numerous attempts to contact Quantico Shooting Club (QSC) concerning the shotgun mishap report and to date we have not received a response from the club or its representatives. If or when Caesar Guerini is contacted and has the ability to examine the firearm in question, we are confident that an independent lab will render an opinion that clears Caesar Guerini of any type of manufacturing defects.

Independent consulting engineers have reviewed the QSC report and advised Caesar Guerini that they do not support the conclusions reached.

Though the QSC report looks official, this report fails to document any expertise or qualifications of the writers that would support them rendering an opinion as to the cause of the failure of the shotgun in question (as opposed to perhaps using defective reloads). The report was written by a non–independent panel of safety officers with no apparent expertise in firearm engineering or metallurgy and fails to address key issues in examining and evaluating a damaged shotgun.

It has been brought to the attention of CG that in an effort to down play the use of reloads in this incident, a new term “spec-load” was created and used exclusively in this report to draw attention away from reloaded ammunition as the probable cause of this incident and potential restrictions being placed on the use of reloads at Quantico.

Below is a list of FACTS concerning our guns and the QSC report:

QSC REPORT

• The report is made to look like an official government document when it is actually an internal investigation by the members of a semi private club that leases property from the U.S. government.

• Our consulting engineers, both internal and independent who have reviewed the QSC report advised that it does not support the conclusions reached.

• Even though Caesar Guerini has not had an opportunity to examine the subject shotgun it is clear from the photographic evidence that the damage caused to the firearm was most likely an extreme pressure reloaded round. This type of extreme damage is not indicative of a standard pressure round regardless of condition of the firearm. Additionally, one of the photos clearly shows a spent round in the lower chamber (not incident chamber) with the brass severely dished. This is a clear indicator of extreme overpressure.

• This report fails to document any expertise or qualifications of the writers such as engineering or metallurgy that would support them rendering scientific conclusions as to the cause of the failure of the shotgun in question (as opposed to perhaps using defective reloads).

• The QSC report goes on to show a diagram of what appears to be the monoblock, barrel, and what they term a “sleeve” and points out the possible defects. They refer to it as three separate members when in fact the barrel is one structure assembled with the monoblock. This shows the complete lack of even rudimentary knowledge of firearm construction making most of their arguments irrelevant. Independent tests have shown that our barrels can withstand pressure of 15,000 p.s.i. without the support of the any structural monoblock.

• Richard Jones is not only a QSC RSO but was actually the RSO on duty at the time of the incident.

• QSC RSO Richard Jones is the person responsible for the selection of materials and the operation of the reloading equipment utilized in hand loading the shot shell which could have caused the eruption.

• The report does not address any training Richard Jones received on the proper safety procedures of shotgun shell reloading, specifically on the Ponsness Warren progressive reloader. It additionally states that Mr. Jones only owned the reloader for approximately one month.

• The Ponsness Reloader had been purchased by Richard Jones on April 1, 2009, only 40 days prior to the May 9, 2009 incident.

• The report makes the false assumption that an operator mistake is impossible or unlikely with the reloading machine in question. The Ponsness Reloader Owner’s Manual contains, among other cautions, the following warnings:

WARNING

If you do not bring the handle all the way up, the machine will not index. If you notice this before the shot and powder is dropped, you can pull the handle up again firmly. If you do not notice it in time, you will have dropped a double charge of shot into one shell, and shot is spilling out the top of that shell. AT THE SAME TIME, YOU HAVE DROPPED A DOUBLE CHARGE OF POWDER INTO AN OTHER SHELL. IMMEDIATELY EMPTY ALL SHELLS FROM THE RELOADER AND DISCARD.

We at Ponsness/Warren always suggest that when reloading Winchester, Federal or Remington hulls, use Winchester, Federal or Remington wads. We also agree that no one knows more about the inside of these hulls than the company that manufactures them.

Most reloaders will agree that the worst part of reloading shells is putting those shells into boxes. As an extra precautionary measure, individually inspecting each shell is very important while boxing. Any abnormal looking shell should be discarded, NOT SHOT, as dangerous results may occur.

WARNING: If you do not push the handle all the way back, the machine will not index. Your shell in station #1 will not be fully seated into its Shell Holder and the live primer in station #2 will not be seated into the empty hull. If you notice this before the shot and powder is dropped, you can push the handle up again firmly. If you do not notice it in time, you will have a clearing and cleaning job on your hands. You will have dropped a double charge of shot into one shell and shot will spill out of the top of that shell. AT THE SAME TIME. YOU HAVE DROPPED A DOUBLE CHARGE OF POWDER INTO ANOTHER SHELL. The shot you can physically see, the powder you can not. The only exception to this rule of not seeing the shot spill over is on start up and failing to insert a wad at the wad carrier station (operator errors) Pay very close attention to steps 6 through 11 on the reloading procedure. Every time the handle is pulled down, watch the Cylinder (part # 80 page 27) to ensure it indexes. If the Cylinder, for any reason does not index, clear all shells from the machine. First, shut-off the shot, powder and the Primer Feed Gate. Add no more wads or empty cases and clear all shells out of the machine. Dispose of those shells! Clean the machine of all shot and powder and return to STEP 1 of the reloading procedure.

THE MOST DANGEROUS OPERATOR ERROR IS FAILURE TO INSERT A WAD, or have a cocked” wad in a shell - then have the operator remove it and not replace the wad. This combined with an incomplete stroke of the operating handle, (failure to index) could conceivably place two charges of shot on top of a single charge of powder. Remember, the shell at the powder drop station also will receive another charge of powder.

THIS IS THE WORST KIND OF OPERATOR ERROR. The resulting shell can cause severe injury to the shooter or bystanders. Serious damage to the gun is also possible.

• The warnings quoted above from the Ponsness Reloader Owner’s Manual directly, specifically, repeatedly and conclusively refute the statements of the QSC Report. Those warnings plainly establish that the Ponsness Reloader is entirely capable with operator error of creating dangerous hand loaded ammunition containing either double charges of powder or double charges of shot, either of which “can cause severe injury to the shooter or bystanders” and “serious damage to the firearm.”

• The QSC report draws conclusions about engineering and design faults with the mono-block system of barrel production. This system is utilized in 90% of all current over & under shotgun production.

• A major omission by the QSC report is the failure to note that the other firearm failures known to CG all involved the use of unauthorized reloads. It also fails to point out that the other gun that failed in the U.S. market was found by an independent laboratory to be conclusively the fault of extreme over pressure reloaded ammunition.

• The QSC report makes assumptions concerning the proofing procedures at the Italian National Proof House that indicates little or no knowledge of the process and controls. It also fails to indicate that the Italian National Proof House is considered by many to be the most modern governmental proofing facility in the world with an impeccable record of safety.

• Caesar Guerini was not contacted by the shooter or by the QSC in relation to the incident and report.

GUNS

• There have been no documented cases of a Caesar Guerini having a catastrophic failure using SAAMI specification factory loaded ammunition.

• Multiple independent safety tests confirm the Caesar Guerini shotguns are known to withstand pressure in excess of the PROOF pressure specified by SAAMI (Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute) without structural damage.

• The safety of our guns are well documented, all Caesar Guerini shotguns go through C.I.P. international (Commission Internationale Permanente) protocols at the Italian Proof House, and are built on an action that is well proven using only certified steel with quality, strength and safety being our main concerns. Every shotgun undergoes the optional 1320-bar high-pressure test at the Italian National Proof House; this pressure is not only the maximum one established by C.I.P. and Italian law but also that shared by the SAAMI standards in the U.S. The industry standard for 12 gauge shotshells is for a maximum average chamber pressure of 11,500 psi. Commercial shotshell ammunition is typically loaded to 7,500 to 10,000 psi. Definitive Proof pressures for 12 gauge shotshells at the Italian Proof House are from 19,140 to 21,026 psi in conformance with C.I.P. International Protocols.

We can assure you that Caesar Guerini has our customer’s safety as our utmost concern. Caesar Guerini has documented engineering reports and safety tests which clearly establish that all guns exceed recommended standards and establishes that there is no safety issue. We remind you that this report fails to document any expertise or qualifications of the writers that would support them rendering an opinion as to the cause of the failure of the shotgun in question.

Please feel free to contact us directly at: info@gueriniusa.com if there are any questions.




Last edited by ArnoldB; 09/28/09 03:06 PM.
ArnoldB #162338 09/28/09 04:02 PM
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Boy, that's a hot potato.
If there were infact several blowups recently, I'd be curious about their serial numbers.
The "Special Report" seem like so much ass tissue to me.
It has a purpose, but it isn't to get to the "bottom" of it all.


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Thats CYA at its finest. Not saying they are right or wrong but thats the way it is.Guys on a range on mil installation and there is an accident. max puvker factor for the RSO and all others working there.
Normal SOP for military is make up large report with terms and technical detaisl that make good presentation and all is good.

Last edited by Brian; 09/28/09 08:18 PM.

Brian
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