doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Thieme & Schlegelmilch proofmarks (or lack of)

Greetings.
A Thieme & Schlegelmilch 16/70 hammerless double followed me home. I know this firm is mostly known for their Nimrod lockup system, Drielings (and the occassional rifle), but this double has what appears to be Damascus barrels and yet there are NO Nitro proofmarks that I can find.

On the watertable, it has their names, a stylized T-thru-S (obviously their corporate mark), patent information and a Crown-over-V.

This Crown-over-V can also be found on barrel flat, with the right barrel under side having '644 R L' and the left side '644 L'. If "any German gun or Rifle carrying a crown-over-V dates to 1891 or earlier" (http://www.germanguns.com/technical.html)
and 329 is the last three digits of the serial number, am I correct in surmising that this '644'is NOT a June 1944 inspection date but the bore diameters? There's no Waffenampts or such.

If it is a blackpowder-only weapon, it's in amazing shape: locks up like a bank vault and there's only some mild speckling in the bores.

Story:

644 is not a date stamp. Are there any other typical German proofmarks besides the crown over V above the barrel flats? German bore marks usually were in gauge within a circle or a gauge ratio(16/1, ...). I wouldn't think that the chamber lengths would be 70mm unless altered. They should be 65mm. Could you post a pic of the barrel flats? Also, the crown of V(Vorrat-on hand) was just a stamp and possibly not subject to proof, unless possibly voluntary submission. In Germany, the Austrian's Vorrat's mark allowed the owner a 1 year grace period for proof.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Theime and Schlegelmilch is a Very Good Gun. The German Gun Collectors Association can answer any questions you have on this fine weapon. You are a luck man to own it.
As a side note, Mr.Schlegelmilch was one of the primary designers of the German 1888 rifle, and because of this, the Mannlicher Schoenour. He was the head of the Arsenal in Berlin.

Raimey,
Nope, nothing beyond what I originally posted. I agree that the 70mm chamber depth was probably done later in the weapon's life, for the American market. I'm just surprised that it's not been shot loose from smokeless shells.
Follow the URL I posted above, there's a link to a page of German proofmarks (1891/1939/postwar).
*
Gunsmith,
Thanks, interesting about Schlegelmilch. I'd read where he ran the Arsenal during the Kaiser's time. There was also a Schlegelmilch porcelin factory in Suhl around the same time (and later Tillowitz), something I learned after snagging a tea set so marked for someone's Christmas present.

Story,
The patent information that you spoke of...was that the 1987, 1892, 1897, or 1898 patent? Thanx in advance...I haven't figured out how to post Adobe pdf's...but I can email you the patents if you just want to have them around...You can send me a blank email at robertchambers@roadrunner.com with Theime & Schlegelmilch in the subject and I'll send them to you...

Not to hijack the thread, I have a T&S Nimrod drilling, 16x16 over 8x57R built in 1939. The chambers are 70mm but the gun is not marked as such. My gunsmith and Dieter Appel both inspected the gun and feel the chambers are original.

The question is, when would 70mm chambers have become standard for 16ga? I know that when 65mm was standard any gun without a chamber length marking was assumed to be a 65mm. Only if the chamber length was 70mm would it need to be stamped 70mm. But my gun being such a late gun, 1939, 70mmm was the "standard" 16ga size at the time. When 70mm became the 16 ga standard would a gun still need to be marked 70mm?

Recoil Rob:

I wouldn't say you are hijacking the thread at all but providing pertient info as well as raising more interesting questions and that is the purpose of this board. I'm just stating what is in "The Standard Directory of Proof Marks" by Gerhard Wirnsberger in 1975 which I believe is based on Baron Engelhardt's research up to 1955, it states that after 1912, any barrel with 70mm chambers had to have the number "70" on the flats, but I guess there are exceptions. I would guess that the standardization of the chambers was some time in the last 1920's or early 30's as the Ithaca Gun Co. offers a 16 bore in 2 3/4" after August 1924 but in 1932 still lists the 16 bore as 2 9/16ths inch. One another note, does your drilling have the stairstep watertable?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Thanks for the info Raimey, I wonder if currently manufactured German 16's are stamped 70mm?
As to my Nimrod, I'm embarrassed to say I don't recall and am not home to check but will do ASAP and report back.

Robert Chambers,
Thanks for the offer - there is no date, but given the Crown-V it's gotta be pre-1891.
For the peanut gallery's edification, the patent info on the face is:
Ernst Schlegelmilch
Patent 39832

Recoil Rob,
According to that PDF page on German proofmarks (ref. above), post-war German guns are clearly marked with 70mm.

Raimey, here are some pics of my Nimrod drilling, it's a blitz or triggerplate action. I'm not sure if it's a stairstep or not.

Story, thanks for that tidbit, I imagine a lot of things may have been going on in Germany in 1939, I'll never know for sure if they're original or not.

Rob