Is he a maker or retailer?





thanks
Robert

R.Marshall,
This is an often seen type rifle made in Zella Mehlis and sold to many dealers in finished condition and gunsmiths for finishing in their own style. Edgar Hubner's address is Suhl and is shown as a Buechsenmachermeister, so it is highly possible that he finished it. If he did finish it, it would have likely been proofed is Suhl. If you post photos of all the markings, including proof marks( found under the barrel) additional information can be provided.
Mike

Thanks Mike I will work on that tonite and report back in the morning..

It came with a box of ammo made from 30-30 cases.

Looks very similar as 8,15X46 1/2mm R which I am currently makin'.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

It looks too long for 8.15x46R, maybe rechambered, post war, to 32-40, or maybe 8.15x52R. Need to see proof marks.
Mike

It is marked 46 1/2 but these cases are 52mm long

Could be bored out to 32-40 but I believe the cases would be 54mm, unless it is some variant. The guess of X52R may just be correct.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

The bottom of the case next to rim is 10.58mm. Neck at bullet is 8.70mm. Bullet looks to be 8.16mm.

Original length 32-40 cases should be 2.125-.130", which is a little longer than 52mm. A chamber cast would be necessary to put a name on the cartridge. Since there are sample cases and bullets, it can be used with out it. It shouldn't be necessary to rebore it for 32-40, especially for lead bullets, the 8.15x46R chamber should clean up with a 32-40 reamer. I mentioned original length cases above, current 32-40 ammo is loaded in 30-30( 2.080") length cases. If it turns out to be 8.15x52R, I would guess it was rechambered in Germany; if 32-40, then the USA. There are possible differences in rim thickness, but most people think rim thickness should be adjusted from the front, so the still existing 30-30 headstamp is not a clue.
Mike

The case I was measuring was a case fired from this rifle. The gentleman I bought this rifle from had his friend make the ammo for it and he fired a couple rounds though it. But what I can’t figure out is if you did the work to make the ammo why didn’t he figure out what round it was instead of writing “32-40?”? Maybe he just didn’t know about 8.15x52R.

here are the proofs

TIDBIT:
Triebel weapon tools - history
History - Triebel weapons
Company founder Rudi Triebel, born in Suhl, traditionally learned gunsmithing. His teacher was Edgar Hübner, whom he greatly adored. As a journeyman Rudi Triebel built an Anson double shotgun.

Yes, & in 1936 he sourced a Kelber tube; high quality component. Proved in the final state w/ an 11 gramme bullet in Suhl.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Thanks Raimey

R.Marshall,
The rifle was proofed at the Suhl proof house during Feb. 1936 as an 8.15x46R( aka 8.15x46 1/2R). The duty bullet was shown as 11G Bl G, or 170 grain lead bullet. It was nitro proofed and had a scope mounted in claw mounts. This leads me to believe it was frequently used with the 9 gram copper jacketed ( 151 grain) flat nose "express" type bullet. This loading would have been legal for hunting Roe deer. If it had been legally rechambered in Germany, it should have been reproofed and the new caliber shown. Therefore, since it doesn't have a crown R and 52mm (52 1/2)case length shown, I believe it was rechambered in the US rather than Germany. I opine then that it was rechambered to 32-40 Win/Ballard. Whether it was intended to use original length or 30-30 length cases can only be answered by a chamber cast. Since it has been performing well with 30-30 cases and lead bullets, I don't see much reason to change. If you feel the need to use jacketed bullets, you should insure they will easily fit into a case fired in the rifle and not resized. It may or may not be necessary to resize the bullets to accomplish this. Lead bullets are not especially critical in this regard. Regarding your question of why the handloader questioned the name of the cartridge. It is likely that he didn't find a perfect match of case lengths, rim diameters, or bullet diameters and just chose the closest one to call it.
Mike

Thanks Mike.
I may do my own chamber cast just to be sure.

Thanks
Robert

30-30 cases are almost 52mm so I wonder if someone punched out the chamber to 52mm so that 30-30 cases wouldn't have to be trimmed?

Yeah, a chamber cast might ferret out the demon. If you use wax, don't tell Ford as his pet peeve is a wax chamber cast.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

A few more pics

I just like dimensions that are true to the chamber.
Mike

Robert,
Measure from the "step" at the end of the chamber neck to the bottom of the rim, then add rim thickness. If you do it in inches, to the thousandths, we can convert.
Mike

the chamber cast was a little awkward working around the extractor but I think it came out ok.
case length: 2.19-2.20 or 55mm
case diam at base: .4250 or 10.79mm
case diam at start of slight shoulder: .390 or 9.92mm
case diam at end of slight shoulder: .355 or 9.02mm
case diam at mouth: .3395 or 8.62mm

chamber neck: looks to be .265 or 6.74mm
bullet grooves .3185 or 8.09mm
bullet lands .3095 or 7.86mm

The case not including the rim is 53.95 and The rim thickness on the fired cases is 1.46mm.

Robert,
See my comments in GGCA forum, It looks like 32-40 chamber in an 8mm barrel.
Mike

Edgar Hübner Gepr. Büchsenmachermeister Suhl or

Edgar Hübner Geprüft Büchsenmachermeister Suhl Geprüft

Don't know that I've seen it prior but ole Edgar Hübner seems to indicated that he just checked the longarm? Probably sourced it in the white from the Zella - Mehlis mechanics.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Thanks Mike and Raimey!

Raimey,

Edgar Hübner Gepr. Büchsenmachermeister Suhl

- gepr. in this case is short for 'geprüfter' (certified, examined)

the line translates as
'Edgar Hübner Certified Master Gunsmith Suhl'

so he might well have made the gun

best regards
Gunter
NRA Life 1974

'

Gunter,
Of course it depends what you mean by "made", that may mean the same to you as "finished" meant to me above.
Mike

Mike,
no offense or anything else intended! Just thought to clarify the german usage of the word 'geprüft' in this context.
I did say he 'might' have made it - which he might!
Rgds
Gunter

Gunter,
I didn't think any offense was intended.
Mike

Every time I read advertising on a longarm that it >>was made inspected, made, manufactured by __________<<, I have even more reservations that the person named contributed much effort. But the possibility always exists that effort was contributed with the EH initials?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Thanks to Wolfgang we now have an image of ole Edgar Hübner at work as a Kontrolliert Qualität(Prüfer) @ BüHag

[img]https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/v...&fit=bounds[/img]

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

I'd say Edgar Hübner was more of a stamper than a maker?


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Thanks Raimey!
Yes, in the case of this gun, you are right - but of course he was also a maker, who joined the Bühag in 1950.

Cheers,
Wolfgang

By the way: Great book about the Bühag:

https://www.waffenmuseumsuhl.de/news/84-buchpremiere-zur-geschichte-der-buehag-suhl.html

Cheers,
Wolfgang

Edgar Hübner & Edgar Strempel were contemporaries and I think both worked @ BüHag so I wonder if they worked in concert on wares @ BüHag?

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post502531

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

My personal unbiased opinion, but Strempel was the essence of Lindner, but he dabbled more in sidelocks than the perfection platform of the A&D Body Action.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, Edgar Strempel became member of the Bühag in 1950, the same year as Edgar Hübner.
The Bühag, founded in 1949, was a cooperative of Suhler gunmakers. For them, it was the only chance to stay as a freelance gunmaker in the communist DDR (German Democratic Republic)! They kept on making their guns on their own, got their parts from the cooperative and later sold their guns through the Bühag. By the way, the Bühag provided Meffert systems only to their members. You will not find any Bühag stamped gun with another action! Meffert provided their actions always with four times locked action in contrary to Merkel, which made only their higher priced guns with that.

Cheers,
Wolfgang

Wolfgang:


Most interesting but „Simson" or „Meffert"? And can you point to the reference for chapter & verse? Odd to that Otto Reif was run out on a rail 'bout this time.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, only Meffert - will copy the text this evening and send you!

Cheers,
Wolfgang