[img]http://https://imgur.com/a/hvECoAH[/img]
I recently purchased this German hammer shotgun at auction. It was inexpensive so I took a bit of a flyer on it but I really don’t know much about it. I have a couple Parkers and an LC Smith, but German guns other than Krieghoff are a mystery to me. A note with the gun mentioned they were an importer for Western Field, 1935-1945. If anyone can decipher the proof marks and stamps on the barrels and water table, it’s much appreciated. It’s a 16 gauge with 30 in barrels. sliver forend, and horn butt plate. The top rib is marked Ant. Bensmann Ludinghaussen I. Westf.
Those are Belgian proof marks, not German.
Yeah, a Liege offering from 1926. Maybe the odd J is Jansen?? Right off, I'm not aware of a Büchsenmacher Ant. Bensmann in Lüdinghausen, Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany. There was a Beerman in Münster, Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany that was relatively close. Could you pleasure us w/ an image of the name on the top rib? High condition if not refurbished.
Cheers,
Raimey
rse
I believe the Belgian gun has been refinished. Would not the barrel flats still be in the white if it were original?
Gents, much thanks. It has been refinished and that was disclosed by the seller. I don’t yet have it in hand but will post a pic of the top rib inscription when I do. I intend for this to be a shooter. There are a lot of marks, stamps, proofs on the gun. It does appear to have been made in 1926. It is probably a Belgian made gun made for a German seller. Definitely 1926 and for nitro.
And definitely an attractive double gun!
Gents,
Thank you for your excellent information. This is fascinating and a lot of fun. I think we have this mystery 90% solved. This gun matches the J Pire ad exactly. From what you have sent me and what I could find, I have a:
-"Fusil Buffalo" 16 gauge hammer shotgun with 30 in barrels
-Manufactured by Jules Pire and Company, 10 rue Van Ertborn, Antwerp, Belgium
-Year of manufacture is 1926 (script "e")
-It was made for the seller, Ant. Bensmann, Ludinghaussen, Westfalia, Germany (inscribed on top rib)
-Chambers are 2 1/2 in. (in sideways omega looking sign, along with gauge)
-Chokes are not exactly easy to decipher but this is my best guess. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. The right barrel is only marked with the bore diameter, 16.9. This appears reasonable for a 16 gauge. The left is marked 16.9 CHOKE 16.8. I'm not sure how to do the conversions but I would guess this makes it cylinder in the right barrel and I/C in the left.
-Nitro proofed (stick figure animal over P.V)
-Provisional proof ("euro" looking sign intertwined with "British pound" looking sign
-Conformity with German proof law (crown with bubble below)
-Barrels with 1 kg 359
-Proof of breach system (perron)
-Controller of proof codes, Hubert Charlier 1923-53 (U with a * over)
-Remaining mysteries: stylized large "P" on barrels, 98 and 99 on water table, 98 on lug, 99 on barrel flats, on the barrel flats between the "e" and "PV" stamps, a small "P" with a * above.
Much thanks for your help!
It may have been finished by Jules Pire, but he did not make it. It was made in Liege by the mechanics there. The odd P or JP on the underside of the left tube might denote Jules Pire? The numbers 98 & 99 may have been assemble numbers. The spangled P is the inspectors touchmark.
Cheers,
Raimey
rse
Once again, Büchsenmacher Antoni/Antonio/Anthony/Antony Bensmann in Lüdinghausen, Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany escapes me for a time. Must have been an obscure firearms merchant in business for a short period of time. Also, may have been an outlet for Jules Pire & Compagnie? I wonder where Wolfgang is with the 1926 city directory for Lüdinghausen, Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany? I would hazard a guess that a Kommuniqué to Waffen Koch in Lüdinghausen, Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany might net some info?
Cheers,
Raimey
rse
......A note with the gun mentioned they were an importer for Western Field, 1935-1945..... The top rib is marked Ant. Bensmann Ludinghaussen I. Westf.
I for one would like to see said note also. Many times, & I suspect Jules Pire & Compangie was doing similar by supplying folks in the Congo w/ flintlocks or the like, a shell compangies was set up for import/export and was little more than a staging area for wares that were made upon the backs of the unsung mechanics in certain gunmaking centres like Liege, Suhl, Zella Sankt Blasii - Mehlis.
Cheers,
Raimey
rse
Raimey: We are in Germany and so it would be "Anton"! ☺️ In the 1928 directory there was no Bensmann in Lüdinghausen. Nevertheless I would like to see the inscript on the barrel....
Cheers,
Wolfgang
Wolfgang:
I knew I was close but not spot on w/ Ant..... Ole Anton Bensmann in Lüdinghausen, Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany is most elusive.....
Cheers,
Raimey
rse
Raimey,
I am curious about the note too, especially about the listed dates. When I went to school, I heard we were having pretty poor relationships between US and Germany 1941-45.
Mike
Raimey:Anton is the short form for Antonius and the shortest form is Toni....
Cheers,
Wolfgang
Ford:
I was unaware that you were in highschool in the early 1940s. How long were you there?
Wolfgang:
Yes, all the variants I posted were all based on the Roman/Latin Antonius. For some reason Axel E. made some statement about a first name variant that a German would not have been named after a Pope? Not sure that bucket holds any water & is full of holes?
Cheers,
Raimey
rse
Raimey: Why shouldn't Germans named after a pope? I know many who are and to be precise, the pope as well as them all are named after saints.
Cheers,
Wolfgang
I concur one hundred times over. I was chasing the Western Field(Montgomery Wards) aspect of the purported note and see that Iver Johnson there. Iver Johnson was the Simson & Co. importer to the U.S. of A. in the mid 1920s. So as a very longshot, there could have been some contorted Montgomery Wards Western Field - Iver Johnson - German maker link? A very long shot in high winds & a limb in the way, but it might be possible.
https://gun-data.com/Montgomery_ward_firearms.htmlCheers,
Raimey
rse
Raimey,
I wasn't in High School in the early 40s, but the interesting thing about History is that you can learn about things that happened before you were born. Of course, you have to pay attention, which is easy when the History teacher is a Wounded Warrior from WW2, and your football coach that takes you duck hunting after school.
Mike
Gents, this is why it is a mystery. The note, I believe is innacurate and says thus: Ludenhousen (misspelled)=Exporter
Made for Western Field
1935-1945
Germany
R. Barrel
Do not fire! (I’m having the gun properly inspected before firing)
1999
Again, doesn’t make any sense to me but it is what is written.
The rib inscription reads precisely: Ant. Bensmann Ludinghaussen I. Westf
Why it says that is anyone’s guess. Maybe a front for Pire to export to the colony. Who knows. But pretty clearly at least made for Pire in Liege,
likely finished in Antwerp. It remains a mystery. When I have said mystery gun in hand next week, I will post more pics, especially of the rib inscription. Cheers!
Hum, interesting as always when another one surfaces. Check the buttplate also.
Cheers,
Raimey
rse