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Posted By: SXS 40 Mystery Gun - 06/13/18 03:23 AM

Anyone ever hear of SxS marked Heinrich Keighoff. Suhl? It is a high quality side lock . And yes, I did not leave out the “r”
Posted By: Igorrock Re: Mystery Gun - 06/13/18 03:52 AM
Similar like this ? http://poulinantiques.hibid.com/lot/2343...k-pigeon-style/
Posted By: fuhrmann Re: Mystery Gun - 06/13/18 05:39 AM
In any way there is a spelling mistake, often seen with US writers:
The name is Krieghoff, never Kreighoff
Posted By: Der Ami Re: Mystery Gun - 06/13/18 02:26 PM
SXS40,
It would help if you post photos of the markings, including Proof Marks.
Mike

Furmann, That is the type mistake I often make.
Mike
Posted By: canvasback Re: Mystery Gun - 06/13/18 02:34 PM
My understanding, which helps me when spelling, is the second vowel is a long vowel and the sound we pronounce. As in Kreeghoff. If it was spelled Kreighoff, we would pronounce it with an “eye”.

Don’t know if that’s any kind of rule but it generally works for me.
Posted By: Dave in Maine Re: Mystery Gun - 06/14/18 01:12 AM
Originally Posted By: canvasback
My understanding, which helps me when spelling, is the second vowel is a long vowel and the sound we pronounce. As in Kreeghoff. If it was spelled Kreighoff, we would pronounce it with an “eye”.

Don’t know if that’s any kind of rule but it generally works for me.

That is the rule. "I before E, sounds like an E. E before I, sounds like an eye."
Keeping those combinations straight can be important.
Posted By: james-l Re: Mystery Gun - 06/14/18 02:53 PM
Old rule "i before e except after c"
Posted By: HalfaDouble Re: Mystery Gun - 06/14/18 03:57 PM
In English maybe, yes, but in German, nein.
Posted By: skeettx Re: Mystery Gun - 06/17/18 11:00 PM
Proof marks mean everything here.

Does it have an HK in circle of dots? Or HK and an anchor

http://www.germanhuntingguns.com/about-the-guns/gun-indentification/

Mike
Posted By: SXS 40 Re: Mystery Gun - 07/12/18 03:34 AM

It was very difficult to photograph the barrel flats do to the light reflection off of the jeweling. Hope this is readable.

Posted By: Dave in Maine Re: Mystery Gun - 07/12/18 10:48 AM
Belgian. All day, every day, twice on Sunday.

Looks like a "xi" over a "*G". I don't have the date tables handy but I'll guess immediate post-WWII.
Posted By: Gunwolf Re: Mystery Gun - 07/12/18 10:57 AM
I see a "w" which would mean 1944.
For "ARMAF"see here:http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20a/a%20armaf%20fr.htm

Cheers,
Gunwolf
Posted By: SXS 40 Re: Mystery Gun - 07/14/18 03:57 AM

So, in reference to my original post, has anyone heard of Heinrich Keighoff of Suhl? That is the marking on the left barrel. The rib is marked “barrels by Armaf”

Just trying to figure out who made this gun and where. Or any other info out there.

Thanks
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Mystery Gun - 07/14/18 11:07 AM
Looks like the tubes were by Jean Falla and made for export in 1956 if the lettre annale is xi? Have you any images of the Suhl stamps?

Below is a link to a similar set of replacement tubes from ARMAF DAGUN(Manufacture Liégeoise d'armes à Feu & J.B. Rongé Fils(Jean Baptiste)) Société Anonyme(ARMAF Liégeoise) in 1954:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post501529



Cheers,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Gunwolf Re: Mystery Gun - 07/14/18 11:22 AM
@SXS40,can you post a picture of the "Keighoff" inscript?

Cheers,
Gunwolf
Posted By: skeettx Re: Mystery Gun - 07/14/18 11:30 AM
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20a/a%20armaf%20fr.htm

http://www.shotguns.se/html/belgium.html

No Keighoff listed
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/a%20a%20artisans%20identifies%20fr.htm#K
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Mystery Gun - 07/14/18 11:45 AM




So, if a replacement tubeset, let's see the action / frame? How many jeweled flats did the Belgians turn out....?


Cheers,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Mystery Gun - 07/14/18 01:11 PM
Is this the beast?









Cheers,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: SXS 40 Re: Mystery Gun - 07/14/18 03:11 PM
Yes, that is the gun. Where did you get the great photos?
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Mystery Gun - 07/14/18 06:44 PM
From the bowels of the internet on Poulin Antiques & Auction Inc. site. Is it a 2 barrel set?? Poulin site gives that the water-table is jeweled as well. Images of the water-table & standing breech of the receiver is about the only way we can put the pieces together.



Cheers,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: SXS 40 Re: Mystery Gun - 07/14/18 07:24 PM
Gunwolf wanted to see the Keighoff barrel marking. With the action flats jeweled, pinned disc set strikers and side clips, I consider this a fairly high quality gun for Belgium. Yes, it is a two barrel set.


photo host
Posted By: skeettx Re: Mystery Gun - 07/14/18 07:30 PM
WOW!! It does have the HK on the breech face
What a story that would make!!
I would suggest you contact Krieghoff
Of course the r is not there and the i and e are reversed, but ???


https://www.krieghoff.com/
610-847-5173

Send them this link on doublegunshop and ask them to please research their records

https://www.krieghoff.com/about-krieghoff/contact/
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Mystery Gun - 07/14/18 07:40 PM
Are there Belgian proofs on the other tubeset? Either the previous custodian had easier access to the Liege proof-facility rather than the German ones or the mechanic he tasked for a new set of tubes(possibly two)a sourced ARMAF for the tubeset. With the German proofmarks on the water-table, it was an all German product at one time. Evidently the Liege artisan couldn't spell Krieghoff?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Mystery Gun - 07/14/18 07:45 PM
I now see the Krieghoff „Schwertanker“ low on the left side of the jeweled water-table.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: SXS 40 Re: Mystery Gun - 07/14/18 08:42 PM
So, what is the conclusion? Is this a Krieghoff knock off, or a real Krieghoff rebarreled in Belgium.
The other set of barrels have the same proof marks and are numbered to the gun.
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Mystery Gun - 07/14/18 09:20 PM
Once again, how or what does the other tubeset read & what are the country of origin proofmarks? Yes, from what I see a bona fide Krieghoff receiver & an ARMAF rebarrel.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Gunwolf Re: Mystery Gun - 07/14/18 11:15 PM
What I see is K E I G H O F F and not K R I E G H O F F . That's heavy and looks like a fake!
What would you call a P U R D E Y with the inscript P U E D Y...? There wasn't any gunmaker named KEIGHOFF in Suhl as far as I know! So someone wanted to write Krieghoff and wrote Keighoff for whatever reason. Probably he was not German.

Cheers,
Gunwolf
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Mystery Gun - 07/15/18 01:22 AM
Well, maybe it never went back to Suhl? Was there reciprocity between the Liege & Suhl proof facilities in 1954?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Gunwolf Re: Mystery Gun - 07/20/18 03:24 PM
Raimey, I cannot imagine that this was the case in 1954.... Germany was not allowed to only make guns until 1956 and in Suhl = DDR there were much more restrictions.

Cheers,
Wolfgang
Posted By: Der Ami Re: Mystery Gun - 07/20/18 06:33 PM
It looks like the Belgian engraver couldn't spell German names.
Mike
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Mystery Gun - 07/20/18 09:40 PM
Originally Posted By: Gunwolf
Raimey, I cannot imagine that this was the case in 1954.... Germany was not allowed to only make guns until 1956 and in Suhl = DDR there were much more restrictions.


Even more reason to send it on to Liege. I wouldn't doubt the receiver to be a pre-WWII Krieghoff offering....... Seeing the back of the locks, the buttplate & what's under it along w/ the other tubeset might net some answers.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: skeettx Re: Mystery Gun - 07/20/18 10:53 PM
OK, looked at the action flats AGAIN
has both Belgium AND German proofmarks
What fun, what fun
Mike
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Mystery Gun - 07/20/18 10:55 PM
The only way those German proofmarks could be legitimate is if the receiver is a pre-WWII offering.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: skeettx Re: Mystery Gun - 07/20/18 10:57 PM
Wish I could see the German marks better, and maybe find a date code smile
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Mystery Gun - 07/21/18 12:43 AM
For the date-code, you are going to need the original tubeset.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: SXS 40 Re: Mystery Gun - 07/21/18 01:51 AM
I received a reply from Krieghoff. They say the gun was made by them in 1939. Obviously, it has been rebarrelled since. Maybe a WWII souvenir?

Skeettx, thank you for the contact information.
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Mystery Gun - 07/21/18 12:26 PM
Well, that confirms some suspicions. Possibly a WWII trophy but I would think it stayed in Europe till the rebarrel. It is possible that a GI poked it in a duffel and brought just the receiver home. Then spending quite a deal of money, he had the additional tubesets made in Liege. Maybe he was stationed in Europe and more easily sent it to Liege?? Any history on the previous custodian?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: SXS 40 Re: Mystery Gun - 07/24/18 04:13 AM

Received a further response from Krieghoff today. I quote “ the gun looks like really good”. It has been identified as a model MONACO II, Pigeon gun. The response included some documents which I will add to this post tomorrow
, all in German, so I have almost no idea what they say. It looks like this gun was the most expensive model with the arabesque engraving.
Posted By: xausa Re: Mystery Gun - 07/24/18 02:53 PM
Just for comparison purposes see : https://www.gun-vault.com/sempert--krieghoff-9570

A copy of the Sempert & Krieghoff catalog illustrated is available from Cornell Publications: https://www.cornellpubs.com/old-guns/item_desc.php?item_id=5618
Posted By: Gunwolf Re: Mystery Gun - 07/24/18 03:02 PM
@SXS 40: I would like to have a look at those German documents..!

Gunwolf
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Mystery Gun - 07/24/18 06:49 PM
Wolfgang:

You are not alone.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: SXS 40 Re: Mystery Gun - 07/29/18 03:27 AM
With my VERY limited computer skills, it took me a while to figure how to put the documents in a format that I could post here.
Sorry, they are sideways ?? Any translation would be appreciated. Thanks



Posted By: ellenbr Re: Mystery Gun - 07/29/18 12:12 PM
Many thanks & appears to be just a snippet of their catalogue & a couple of testimonials of top shots or winners @ pigeon shoots.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse
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