My friend that owns a gun shop sent a few pictures today of a drilling. He knew I was looking to buy one and he bought a collection with a couple of drilling in it and he is keeping one and selling this one to me. I plan to go take more pictures soon. He said this one is a double trigger with a greener safety and is 12ga over 8x57JR. Is there anything I need to look for function wise? Here are a few pictures.

R.Marshall
It looks like a nice drilling, in spite of the fact that I am a 16 ga. man. It would be helpful if you post additional photos. You should post photos of all the markings, especially the proof marks. To find these, you need to remove the forearm and barrels. The proof marks will be found under the barrels. Also an overall photo would be helpful, because there are several different rifle barrel selectors and we can't tell whether yours is the common type, or something else.
Mike

If I read that correctly, DRP Nr. 60215, that is a Heym patent from 5.23.1891:

Dreiläufiges Jagdgewehr mit drei Abzügen und drei auf einer Achse sitzenden Hämmern

So with that, Karl Körmes may have sourced F.W. Heym for this example. We had a thread or threads recently on Büchsenmacher Karl Körmes in Liepzig.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Thanks for the info. I hope to have better pic's soon.

R. Marshall,

I have a few and some things to look at are that the gun is on face and there is no play with the forend off. Same thing you look for on a SXS. I usually put in some dummy rounds with painters tape over the backs and make sure I get good firing pin strikes on all barrels and do it a couple of times to make sure the selector works correctly. Also if the barrel selector raises the rear sight make sure that it also lowers it. Check there are no cracks in the stock or forend and finally that the barrel & ribs are tight.

I like to slug the rifle barrel to make sure I have the right size bullets, also check the chamber length, more likely that not it will be 65mm (use 2 1/2" RST or something similar).

As others have suggested more pics are needed. From what I see the area in the picture showing the maker the solder joint between the rib and barrel looks a bit funny, it appears to be an unusual build up of solder or maybe just oil or grease? I would look this over very carefully to make sure it is not "repair" of some sort.

Other than that start looking for some 8X57 JR ammo and have fun.

WBLDon

Here's a thread on a combo retailed by Karl Körmes:


Karl Körmes was a trader:

http://www.ebay.it/itm/Karl-Kormes-Leipzig-Jaggdportmagazin-Jagdpatronen-Reklame-1897-/161246833780

but established in 1797…!!!

and he existed at least in 1949:

http://adressbuecher.genealogy.net/entry/show/2604772


http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=368862&Searchpage=1&Main=32067&Words=K%F6rmes&Search=true#Post368862

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

R Marshall,
FW Heym's patent was the first hammerless drilling, a fact they are still very proud of. The Gun was not necessarily made by Heym, note also that they reference the Anson and Deely system, but they didn't make it either. Note the Heym patent included 3 triggers, and 3 hammers(Haemmern) on one pin( axel "Achse"). The use of the word hammer is a little unusual, now they would likely be called "schlag stueck"( hitting or striking piece). If the drilling had 3 triggers, it wouldn't have a selector. I too am concerned about the same thing WBLDON is.
Mike

I went and looked it over and it was just dust built up next to the rib. Lock up was tight with the forearm off and the bores all look good. The sight pops-up and closes when working the barrel selector which looks like a normal tang safety. I forgot to take a few pictures of the overall gun due to being in to big of a hurry. Here are the pictures I took.

Here is the ammo he said went with it.

Yes, you will need a .318 bullet
as is above

https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/...754908510566.do

Still no general view picture... Are you teasing us?

Looks to be a very nice early specimen.


With kind regards,
Jani

Most interesting that Louis Kelber & the mechanic EW both contributed effort on the tube work along w/ the owner of the boxed Ks or K in a Rhombus. For that effort, one couldn't ask for anything better. Not sure on the DRGM(Gebrauchsmuster) 1116 but I seem to recall that DRGMs commenced on June 1st, 1891 and considering the voluntary proof data, this example should have been completed by 1893?

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=389535

Thread on Heym's patent.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Thanks for the info. Sorry for no General view pictures. The stocks are in good shape. It has what looks like a horn buttplate in a basket weave pattern and a capped pistol grip. Under the barrel selector it has a gold tone "S" on top and a "K" on bottom. I have the gun on hold with a small down payment.I'm just trying to find out all I can before I fully commit. This will be my first Drilling and I see prices all over the place so I want to make sure this is the one I want.

The collection he bought this Drilling in also had a Remington 1894 CE 12ga with the star damascus that is in very fine shape inside and out and a Sauer drilling with 22" barrels 16x16 over what we think is 9x74 with a claw mount german scope on top. The Sauer is very clean but plain with no engraving.

R.Marshal,
The crown U is the mark for a "view" proof, which was a detailed inspection, including verification of dimensions. The crown W is the mark for choked barrel( amount of choke unknown). It's curious that I didn't see a crown S, which was the mark for proof with shot, maybe it was hidden in assembling the barrel bundle. The 12 in a circle means it has a standard, for the time, 12 gauge chamber. The standard 12 gauge chamber was shorter than todays standard- 67mm(2 5/8") vs 70mm( 2 3/4"). The 13/1 is the bore diameter ahead of the chamber(18.26mm). The word "Nitro" shows the drilling was proofed in Suhl, so was likely made there or nearby. The crown G means it was proofed for a single projectile( bullet). Since it has the bore( not groove or bullet) diameter in millimeters(7.7mm), it was proofed after the 1911 improvements to the 1891 proof law. The case length should have also been shown. From time to time we see guns proofed during the transition to the new, missing the case length. The "S" under the selector is for "Schrot"( shot) and the "K" is for "Kugel"( ball or bullet). While this is a nice drilling, I would consider the other one, if I intended to hunt with it. Even though it is "plain", Sauer is a good and known name. The main reason for my opinion is that you said it has a scope mounted. To effectively use a drilling, it should have a scope. To have one mounted in the US can be an expensive proposition.
Mike

So did Karl Kormes contract different sources to have a drilling built for him to put his name on to sell? Where they built under one roof or moved from specialty to specialty? By looking at the proof marks it was built after 1911? I would love to buy the scoped drilling but he is going to hang on to it.

It was very common practice for dealers to have their guns made by someone in one of the gun making areas and either add their own name or have the maker do it. Also it was common for these guns to be "made for the trade", in more or less standard configuration, sold to a dealer, then a user; and never have any name added. This is the source of incorrectly named "Guild Guns". Larger makers often had enough "in house" workers to assemble the whole gun( but often with outside sourced specialty items, a good example being barrel blanks). Others would use some outside sources to do certain items of work, such as putting the barrel bundles together, engraving, making the stock, fitting the barrel bundles to the action, or regulating the barrels. Sometimes they sent the work to the workman, and sometimes they had the workman come to the shop. Often these workmen worked during the day in a larger factory and at night or weekend on these other jobs. The marks and initials that are not proof marks were added by these workers to ID work for payment and fix responsibility for quality of the work. This system was also used by the large makers, with their "in house" workers. I believe the gun was made in or about 1911, but I can be wrong. After about 1923, Suhl started dating their proofs, but Zella-Mehlis dated theirs much earlier. If yours had been dated, we would be sure.
Mike

Körmes would have placed an order w/ a concern either in Suhl, Zella-Mehlis or Liege and then they more than likely applied his name. Körmes' shop would have performed some repairs and scope mounting, etc.

The example is mixed in time w/ the proofmarks. It has an early DRGM Nr. and a voluntary proof load stamp, both which were prior to 1911. Odd why some 20 years later one would still apply the DRGM number. It is possible it could have been completed at the cusp of the rules change in 1911/1912, but not much later.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Once again thanks for the info. Does the marks and initials inside this gun offer any hints of the maker? Were these marks of craftsmen of high standards?

The DRGM might point toward a maker but it is odd to see two of the upper rung tube mechanics have their initials(LK & EW) on the same tube. Makes me wonder if it started as some calibre and was altered during the process or thru the years?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

It appears that the voluntary semi-smokeless load data was overstamped or incomplete?



Appears to be 2,3g G.B.P. /(over) g G.B.P.

when it should read something like:

2,3g G.B.P. /(over) StmG or BlG?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Here are a few more pictures, they really don't do it justice.

That's a nice so called "Anson-Drilling" with a Heym patented action. What I would like to know is the barrel length and the weight? In those times they were even able to build "schlanke" and goodlooking 12 G Drillings...!

Cheers,
Gunwolf

Thanks Gunwolf. I still have this gun on hold at my friends shop. I will check the barrel length the next time I visit him. I really like the looks of this old drilling and It may come home with me soon.

The horn trigger guard is a nice touch.

Oh my god and it has a greener safety. Good job! What kind of strap are you using and where did you get it?

So is each engraved drillings one of a kind since they were farmed out and built to meet the gun dealers spec's? I know I see a lot of different engraving and very seldom do I see two with same game scene.

R.Marshal,
They "farmed out" special engraving requests( as a general rule), but also had "in house" engravers that applied "standard" patterns, according to the model of the gun( ie Hunting Scene, Scroll, etc.). In house engravers were expected to meet a production standard for the pattern. For the special work, a price would be agreed upon for each job.
Mike

Thanks for the general view picture (for which I was teasing you a bit )
Seems to be a very nice drilling. Years ago I had a prewar Krieghoff drilling in 12g and it was so lightweight everyone taught it was 16g. Unfortunately it had some deep pits so I let it go.

With kind regards,
Jani

The barrels are just under 27" and the weight 7.5Lbs.

I test fired this old drilling yesterday and It feels pretty good. I hit a gallon water jug a 50yards on the first shot. I will shoot it a few times on paper to figure up how it really shoots.

Well done, always great to hear them being used again
Mike

I ran across some pinch type high scope rings in my junk pile and thought I would try this. This drilling has a couple of dovetails with stops on the front of them which I guess is for mounting claws base. I put these on and tightened them down. They are tight. What are y'alls thoughts on this, worth trying?

R.Marshall,
Yes, It is absolutely worth trying. I suggest, however, that you shorten the bottom of the "feet" so that the joint between the two sides is even ( so the scope tube fits correctly).Also take the gun with you when shopping for a scope and select one that can be mounted far enough back to allow useable eye relief.
Mike

Thanks Mike!

How about these??
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Weaver-22-Caliber-1-Inch-Tip-Off-Rings-Black/332170509522?epid=1100035002&hash=item4d56e7bcd2:g:cJEAAOSwSlBY3qvu

I use them on my Baikal 30-06 Over Under

Mike

p.s. here are a bunch of tip off rings to review
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R4...gs&_sacat=0

Thanks Mike!

R.Marshall: Congratulations on a useful find, with good engraving to boot. You are on the right track for scope mounting. Those original clip mounts would be hard to find. Your dovetail portion looks to be in the range of 15 or 16mm. which means you should be able to modify some CZ rings for their small action rifle (was it the 527, memory fails). You will only have to get rid of all or most of their square recoil stop with a file and some instant blue. It is possible to shave off one side of the CZ rings if need be to get a tight fit. One of our members on dgj also accomplished the same thing by brazing onto the screw attached portion of the dovetail and filing to fit. I also have a mount like yours. The neat thing is you have a built in recoil stop on your bases. I especially enjoy the ultra low profile of the bases which makes shotgunning so unencumbered in regard to the sight plane. Judging from how the barrels seem to stand out from the frame, I suspect you have a light petite frame which should make a 12 ga. a delight to carry and use. Enjoy! Steve

Good picture Skeetex....and those rings are a lot lower than the see-through variety.

The CZ 527 rings with brass shims locked up tight. I hope it sights in ok because we have a private land doe hunt this weekend.

Well I didn't have much luck sighting in my two drilling that I have scoped. My H.Scherping ran out of elevation and the drilling with the CZ ring ran out of windage. So I took the scope off the Scherping and shot my first deer with open sights.

Use a laser bore sighter and try turning the rings so they tighten on opposite side to help with the windage problem.

Also using a straight tube scope Leupold 1-4, 1.5-5 or straight 2.5x you can use lower rings and not have to lift your head so high off the stock to use the scope.

Sauer drilling with old Weaver K-1.5 in home fabricated claw rings made from Weaver Grandslam steel rings. 100 yard sight in.

R.Marshall,
With regard to the drilling with CZ ring, I suggest you "drift" the dovetail plate the front ring fits into, opposite the direction you need to move the POI. You will be surprised how much the POI moves with a small movement of the plate. The Scherping will be more troublesome. You bay be able to get a useful
zero" by varying the load. We don't know if it hits high or low, and by how much. Also we don't know particulars or the load or the distance to the target. BTW, Waidmannsheil.
Mike

Thanks Mike and oskar. I will try drifting.

this is the mounts I'm working with.

R. Marshal,
The side view looks like a dovetailed plate, but the top view does not clearly show that. If there is not a plate dovetailed into the rib or a base let into the rib, you won't be able to follow my suggestion. In that case, you will have to use Oskar's method.
Mike

Are the two dove tails EXACTLY the same width? If the rear one is narrower, then that will explain why your windage is off. BTW, I have a Simson drilling where the front claw mount was soldered in crooked. Had to jump through major hoops to work around that! A solution can be found--even if it means adjusting for manufacturing mistakes. Good luck.

the dovetailed plates look to be the same width (can you measure and confirm?)
a fairly standard set-up on hunting rifles of a certain age in Germany.
both plates can be 'drifted' for 'windage' adjustment on the early, 'elevation only' adjustable scopes - before 'windage adjustable scope legs' were invented some time before WW2 - or perhaps earlier - can't remember now, getting old.
If (unlikely) the plates should be of different widths, then it can only be a specific manufacturers 'own' mounting system.
But unlikely I should think.
I have come across these things in the past and, as far as I remember, the plates were always identical in width.
In fact, I've got some 'legs' somewhere for that type of mounting system - 'lever' type, if I remember correctly.
Our friends in Germany should have an idea - I haven't lived there for more than 45 years, so am out of touch.

rgds
Gunter

open sights worked out ok. 60yards drop dead in his tracks

Who can argue with success?
Mike