Hello, everyone hoping to reach out to get some information or get an idea where I can information about this Riffle. I inherited two guns from my grandpa. He obtained both guns post WW2. He got them in a trade for some work on this persons tv that had been oversea's in Germany during the war. One was a 9mm Ruger which so far I have been able to trace everything but the officer it belonged to. Next is the the riffle. It is a Josef Zeller from Dortmund Germany. The barrel is a Krupp. I believe the upper barrel is 16ga and the lower is a 6.3 mm. Just hoping to see if I can get any more info or where to look to get more info. Thank you for the help!
Images will garner you the most info. Regarding German origin, it was made in either Suhl or Zella-Mehlis and retailed by Zeller, which possibly had satellite outlets in Hamburg & Hanau.
Cheers,
Raimey
rse
Trying to post picture having issues. Sorry
Let me know if you can view these pictures.
Ben,
The photos didn't open up. You said the rifle is a 6.3mm. I'm guessing, then, you read that in the proof marks. Is there a case length near the 6.3?, I would likely be somethin in the 50-60mm length, but could be longer or shorter. The 6.3 is the bore(not groove or bullet) diameter, so it would be one of the nominal 6.5mm cartridges. It should be noted that some German 6.5mm cartridges don't use the current standard 6.5mm bullet, which is .264"(6.7mm).If you can get photos to open up( incl. of proof marks)we can give you additional information. Failing that, finding case length will help.
Mike
Hello Ben W and welcome on your first postings
Start here
http://www.shotguns.se/html/germany_1890-1945.htmlMaybe use
www.hunt101.com for your picture host?
All good
Mike
Thank you for the link for the markings that will be helpful! The picture problem is going to be a pain as I'm not computer savvy.
You get your pictures on Hunt101 and I will help you get them on this site
I sent you a PM
Mike
Without images of the touchmarks, I'd hazard a guess the Kerner-Anson(Kernersche Ansonschlosse) Body Action Combo/-O/U was made by Greifelt & Companie, Suhl.
Cheers,
Raimey
rse
Ok was able to get home and look at the proofs and markings
Shotgun side. Crown W, crown u, 20 in a circle and a 19 below so I’m assuming a 20 gauge
Rifle side 6.3 mm, 58 1/2, crown g, crown u, 2 k’s with in a square, rupp stahl, crown n st.m.g 8gr
On the shotgun barrel. Josef Zeller, crown s, hard to read but I think it is hussstahl, Krupp and think cooch,Dortmund, eagle nitro
Bottom of the riffle barrel. WK in fancy lettering, serial number 25207, Stand alone w.
There is a symbol on their 3 times I cant-identify that is not on that proof. It looks like the eagle from the suhl proof 1950-1992 but with three dots in the center
Nice, now a chamber cast and bore slug is in order
The 20 in CIRCLE would indicate a 2 1/2 inch chamber
Mike
Raimey,
Figuring the "WK" is Wilhelm Kelber - Beiersgrund 3, Suhl. What are you thinking on the boxed "K's" ... again, one of the Kletts?
Mark
Ben,
You are correct that the gun is 20 ga, but it has a 2 1/2" chamber, which is shorter than the current 2 3/4" standard. The barrel is 19 ga, ahead of the chamber, this would be slightly overbored.
The 6.3-58 1/2 confirms that it is chambered for 6.5x 58 Sauer and Son, which was a popular cartridge, especially for hunting Reh( Roe) deer. This cartridge usually used a bullet smaller than todays standard 6.5 mm bullet(.260"vs.264"). The crown G means it was proofed for a single projectile( bullet), the 2 Ks is the mark of the barrel maker. Krupp Stahl is the material from which the barrel was made. The crown N is a Nitro Proof. The St.m.g 8 gr means it was proofed for a 8 gram steel jacketed bullet. Josef Zeller was the retailer, crown S means it was proofed for shot. What you show as hussstahl, is really Gussstahl, which means fluid steel. Krupp was the steel maker. Dortmund is a city in Germany, but without being able to see it, I have no idea what "cooch" really is. The eagle Nitro is nitro proof, if "nitro" is in block letters, it was proofed in Suhl, but if script letters, it was proofed in Zella-Mehlis. The WK "in fancy lettering" is an often seen mark, but not a proof mark; rather it is the mark of someone that worked on it, likely assembling the barrel bundle. There were more than one possibilities for the ID of "WK". You reported a w on the rifle barrel, this would be the mark of another workman. If you can find a crown W on the shotgun barrel, this would mean the barrel was "choked". I would need to see a clear photo of the other marks, to figure out the meaning. I hope this helps some.
Mike
Fortunately the barrel on my Heeren 6.5x58R Sauer measures .264 and it loves 120 grain Sierras.
The last two pictures have probably the clearest photo of the symbols that I could not identify. Looks like a eagle but not like any of the proofs on the link.
Yeah Baumgarten, the K in a Rhombus or boxed K could be attributed to a Klett or possibly a Kelber. Axel E. gives that the jagged encircled K is that of a Klett but a workcard or similar will ferret out the demon. This example experienced proof between 1912 & early 1923 in Suhl. The script WK is that of master barrelsmith Wilhelm Kelber. But the boxed Ks denote a dual tube effort. With the high serial number I still wonder if it was sourced from Greifelt?
The last 2 images show the Imperial Eagle & Inspection stamp on the water-table.
Cheers,
Raimey
rse
Ben,
The crown U under an eagle is the mark for a definitive proof, using the provisional charge. It does have the crown W, so it is choked( amount of choke not listed, but usually very tight).The Nitro is in block letters, so it was proofed in Suhl. It was likely made in or near Suhl, then. With the bore shown in mm, it was made after 1911. There is no date, so it was made before 1924. I still couldn't see the "cooch", when I tried to magnify it, all I could see were knees and feet.
Mike
I will try a better photo. Thanks for all the great info. I feel much better informed on what I have you guys are a wealt of knowledge!
Here are 3 it’s the word after Krupp. It’s almost impossible to read.
https://ibb.co/hZqgd6https://ibb.co/mFC55mhttps://ibb.co/gjGbBR
That's Essen, the city where Krupp is located.
Ben,
Half a Double is correct, Essen is in the Ruhr river valley, I believe.
Mike
One last question and it’s the loaded one. How do I go about estimating a value for insurance purposes?
Just Google "Greifelt Suhl Shotgun" and more than likely you'll find they range around $2200 - $2500 and then consider any demerits.
Cheers,
Raimey
rse
Ben,
You'll find dozens of them looking for "Drillings and Combination Guns" on
http://www.gunsinternational.com and searching on other sites such as
http://www.gunsamerica.com and
http://www.gunbroker.com. You'll see what others are ASKING for guns of varying condition and cartridge configurations, what they will actually sell for (their worth) is something else again. Then there are the auction houses such as James Julia Auctions where one can acquire record of what guns sold for. Having inherited the gun from your grandfather I will assume an increase in the guns value to you (it's importance ... that of the sentimental nature) so if only for insurance purposes I'd suggest you play it on the high side, say $3K. From what I see the barrels seem to have some pitting and the wood has a fair amount of wear such as worn checkering and some handling dents here and there. I also see the top lever is at the left of center (typically a condition of a fair amount of use over time). I can't tell, from what I see, if you have a single or a double Kersten lock up (top lugs), a double indicating a higher end offering thus a nice bonus. A "Bockbuchsflinte" or O/U shotgun rifle combination gun has to be in exceptional condition and with a nice scope to draw $3K or better but again as this gun was your grandfather's it may very well be seen by you as a priceless treasure as I treasure those similar now in my possession. I haven't seen, thus far, any mention of you wanting to shoot the weapon. You may want to have some fun with it. I don’t have any experience with the 6.5x 58 Sauer and Son but I’m pretty sure Mike (Der Ami) or others can help you out. Acquiring 2 ½” 20 ga shot cartridges is not a problem. I have acquired them from POLYWAD -
http://www.polywad.com and RST Classic Shotshell Co, Inc. -
http://www.rstshells.com when I haven’t reloaded my own.
Regards,
Mark
Yes all of the above I plan on keeping it. It does show wear and some minor pitting. I don’t plan on shooting it unless a gun Smith was to go through it completely. More sentimental value and show peice. This gun and the Luger are awesome show peices and conversation starters
Yeah, me thinks Baumgarten has all the Brenneke slugs, if I remember correctly. Well, between he & M-4.
Cheers,
Raimey
rse
That's funny Raimey, I just bought a case. Guess I'm "one of those" who believes one can't have too much ammunition.
Nah, Baumgarten one can't have too much ammo. This case you mention, was it all 16 bore?
Cheers,
Raimey
rse
Hey now, I only bought a case as well & yes, they were all 16 ga!
m-4
Yep, the 2 1/2" 16's. Was concerned for a while that Brenneke wasn't listing them on their website but that changed a while back:
http://www.brennekeusa.com/hunting-ammunition/brenneke-16tm/
