I own a beautiful side by side Johann Kalezky 45/70 rifle,it came in a gorgeous leather case which contains a leather sling,the stock has an ammo storage which contains one round of an old 45/70 calber.The box also holds a german hunting sword,I can read Eckhorn Solingen on it.
I would like information about this gun,it came with some Google translation but I cannot identify the original language,I would guess it is russian.
Any info will be greatly appreciated.

It just doesn't get any better than offerings by Johann Kalezky, even those bobby-dazzlers from some little Isle. Eickhorn is still in business in Solingen, Germany so the text should be German. Post some images or forward them to me & I'll gladly post them for you.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

If the gun is made by Johann Kalezky, K - K Hoflieferant in Vienna,Austria, than it's normally chambered in 11,5 x 60R Express, DWM cartridge no. 96 (.450/60) and not 45/70. Please check this.

Thank you for response.How do I forward the pictures to you?

I will,thank you

How do I forward the pictures to you?

I have seen the pictures before they are cancelled.
Very easy to check the chamber. If you use 45/70 and it's chambered 11,5 x 60R you can't close the gun.

Ger,
The 70 in 45-70(an old American cartridge from 1873)doesn't stand for the case length, as the 60 in 11.5x60 does. The 70 stands for 70 grains of black powder, which was the original load. The 45-70 case length is close to 51mm. The rim is flat, unlike the rim on 11.15x60 or any other cartridge based on that case( Mauser base MB) The 45-70 has a slightly larger diameter bullet(.458")and rim diameter(.600"), but because of manufacturing tolerances may go into a 11.5x52R chamber. It would have a few thousandths excess headspace, because the rim is thinner than the MB rim. MB cartridges were used in Austria, but were not as popular as they were in Germany. The 45-70 case is .010-.016" smaller diameter at the head, but will expand on firing to fit the chamber. I modify the rims of 45-70 cases to MB configuration to use in my 11.15x51R and a friend does the same for his 11.5x52R. Cases can be made for 11.15x60R from 45-90(again, capacity, not length),because the head and rim are the same as 45-70.
Mike

I did try 2 rounds of 45-70 and they perfectly.I shot both rounds and they hit the target about 4"appart.
I am trying to get some good photos to post,notice I am saying:I am trying,not very good with the computer.
Oshans

I meant:they fit perfectly
Oshans

oshans,
It would be helpful if you could post photos of the cases from the cartridges you fired.
Mike

Mike,
I think Ger is not talking about any MB (Mauser Boden, right?) cartridge but rather about the .450 Express Short (11.5 or 11.6x60R) which was a very popular hunting round in Austria-Hungary.

With kind regards,
Jani

I will try but it might take a couple of days

Jani,
It could be.
Mike

I have the pics but don't know yet how to post them,I did try the 45-70 cartridges and they again fit perfectly,the leather case has a brass plack that states
45-70 cal rifle.
Hopefully tomorrow I'll know how to post the photos.
Thank you all for your interest .
Oshans

Like I said, forward the images to me & I'll gladly post them.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,I need your email address so I can forward the pics to you,I apologize for my ignorance,that's the way it is

Either go to my profile or see your PMs.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Lovely, you located my email. I would fancy seeing it in person.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Interesting English language case tag.


Eickhorn hunting knife. Most interesting accoutrement. Not sure I've seen one cased in such a manner? I fancy an image of that colourful Imperial Eagle in the case top.


Austro-Hungarian Empire Imperial Eagle w/ sword & globe/orb.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Yet another interesting stamped brass placard w/ 45-70. Divorce the tubeset from the frame & see if there are any touchmarks.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Can you say that in lay terms?
Thanks

Eckhorn hunting knife. Most interesting accoutrement. Not sure I've seen one cased in such a manner? I fancy an image of that colourful Imperial Eagle in the case top.

"Hirschfaenger" (hunting dagger), made by Carl Eickhorn, Solingen, Germany.

Austro-Hungarian Empire Imperial Eagle w/ sword & globe/orb.

The small coat of arms of Oesterreich-Ungarn (1806-1915), in the middle from left to right Habsburg, Österreich, Lothringen, parts of the empire.

The "Jon" indeed is very interesting....
"JOHANN" or "JOHANNES" is always shortened to "JOH" (or, as in this case, only with "J")what may be read as "JON" in engraved letters.. This is to be seen in a russian forum:
http://forum.guns.ru/forum_light_message/112/397952.html

I cannot imagine that any European maker would write "JON".... I think the sign is added later...

Cheers,
Gunwolf

Wolfgang on the 2008 thread, it was peddled by Johann Kalezky's widow, which was later & the name was misread: Joh.

The case & accouterments were prepared for an English speaking client that fancied the 45-70 cartridge. There is another image of a brass tag that reads Vienna, Austrian(I'll have to upload it) & I for one would assume that about every European knew the location of Wien so why have tag that reads Vienna, Austria unless it was for a hunter from the U.S. of A.?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

In my unlearned opinion, the case with tags is a latter US addition. The "Hirschfaenger" is intended to administer the "Coup de Grace"(?) to a wounded Hirsch( Red Deer Stag). It would be helpful to see photos of the proof marks.
Mike

We have only seen bits and pieces of the gun and the case.
Plenty room for speculation.
I see the possibility that the gun did not come from Vienna in this case. The whole set may have been composed later.
Those brass plates are engraved (or actually stamped ?) quite crudely, not in the quality and the spelling (e.g. "JON" or "VIENNA, AUSTRIA") one would expect.
One rather would expect some trade label from Kalezky in the lid of the case?
The rifle once had a scope, the rear base for a "Wiener Schnäpper-Montage" can be seen. Now look at the the inletting or the "bed" for the barrels in the case. There is room for the scope bases, but I see no scope.
Not logic to lovingly compile a rifle and a hunting dagger in a case but leave out the scope.
Finally, I am still puzzled about the .45-70. Would like to see proof marks, as all of you.

fuhrmann

and another cased "Jon" Kalezky...:

http://uoor.com.ua/forum/index.php?threads/Зброя-як-мистецтво.34783/page-47

Very strange in my opinion..

Cheers,
Gunwolf

The kyrillic alphabet has no letter for "H".

If you see an "H" in kyrillic writing it means "N" !

this would point to a russian origin of who ever it made...

Gunwolf

Ah, I'm not sold on any of that just yet. oshans is only say an hour & 1/4 West of me so I may nip in & see it in person.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

I would say stamped on the characters & is the double headed eagle surmounted by a crown correct?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

That Austrian double eagle appears to be a complicated matter.
I looked here
http://austria-forum.org/af/Wissenssammlungen/Symbole/Doppeladler

Conclusion: the eagle here is the form used in Austria between 1806 and 1915.
The Austro-Hungarian form looks different and came only in 1915.

The eagle plaque in the rifle case here looks as if it was cut out somewhere else. And I cannot imagine a reason why it should be there, except deccoration.

fuhrmann

Fuhrmann, I'm with you - it's all a little bit too much...! Even the eagle is too colourful, in original it's black only!

Cheers,
Gunwolf

Beside the colour, the eagle is that of 1815



Cheers,
Gunwolf

There are a couple of European 11,5 mm or .450 cartridges that are quite similar to a .45-70.
I believe that at some time a .45-70 reamer was run through the chambers of this rifle.
fuhrmann

That is a possibility but I'd hold off on a final decree until any marks surface & a chamber cast is performed. I just don't believe an American would cobble together the Hirschfaenger/hunting knife in the lid of the case as an accouterment along w/ the brass tags. But alas it is possible. In all my hunting, I've yet to see a hunter in the U.S. of A. pull out a blade to neutralize wounded game, unless I was watching myself. Most want to shoot it again & leave an associated powder mark.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,

agreed, it is just a hypothesis and further detail is needed.
Still, I believe this is a sort of "souvenir box", for some items a GI collected around 1945.
Regards,
fuhrmann

You know Fuhrmann, that has crossed my mind from the onset. Lovely case, but it would have had to have been cobbled together by someone knowledgeable in European sporting weapons and a knowledge of German. I believe I can safely say progress is being made on the touchmarks. You don't have J. Kalezky's ledger by chance, do you?



Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Found this on a russian site, the case at least cannot be original in my opinion...









Cheers,
Gunwolf

Raimey, would be interesting to see the "text" with the gun, if it is german or russian..!?

Cheers,
Gunwolf

I'll see but I have serious reservations but I have be wrong before! One thing there Wolfgang, I don't know it would be a fair or apples to apples comparison of J. Kalezky's offerings vs. those of his widow? Then again it may not make a tinker's darn.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,

yes, that's a good handmade case, but where from?
My question is: I do not see any knowledge of German here, on the opposite I notice the absence of any German language. Nobody here would use the wording "VIENNA AUSTRIA" - Wien bleibt Wien, and everybody knows where is is. If the case was made in Austria, or even for Kalezky, one would expect some trade label or other reference to the maker, probably in German.

Sorry I do not have any data about Kalezky. Quite curious to see more about this rifle!

fuhrmann

Raimey, I won't compare this two! I only want to point out to the prename! The Jon is wrong in each case. I think, there is someone trying to use the good name of Kalezky for trading..!?

Cheers,
Gunwolf

I concur whole heartedly & I'm leaning toward Böker, Schoverling, Daly & Gales, etc. as it resembles some of the cases that I've viewed with H.A. Lindner's wares.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

I think the same.
Case, tools, leather wallet, everything appears to be brand new.
Gun seems restored, fitted with sling swivels (look like QD swivels, made in US by Uncle Mike, to top it off...)
I'd say, the label with misspelling "JON" part of the restoration project.

fuhrmann

I think, this is how a original Case Joh. Kalezky looks like:

https://new.liveauctioneers.com/item/11688585

Cheers,
Gunwolf

...and another case:

https://vadaszapro.net/reszletek/237679/johkalezky

Gunwolf

"In all my hunting, I've yet to see a hunter in the U.S. of A. pull out a blade to neutralize wounded game, unless I was watching myself."
Never that have done a hunter in Germany or Austria. This "Hirschfaenger" is only a cold weapon for honour, weared together with festive uniform.
To neutralize dangerous wounded game we use a "Saufeder" when dogs are round them.
Ger

Ger,
I have seen it, but maybe before you were born. It was not a Hirsch, but a Reh Bock and the blade was a jagd knicker(?). The Hirschfanger(?) was used for this in historical times, when a crossbow was used, instead of 9.3x74R or 7x65R. The Saufeder was intended for Sauwild, but I guess one could be used on anything. When I hunted there, a pistol was legal for Fangschuss(9mm/38Spec/357, etc)and I suspect more would be used than any blade now. I see blaze orange in recent photos; when I was there, this would have been an insult to other hunters. "Times they are achanging".
BTW, I, myself have dispatched a whitetail with a knife.
Mike

Mike, you are absolutely correct except "Sauwild".. We call it Schwarzwild. I myself remember well the good old "green" times, orange was an absolut "No Go"! But looking at many hunters today, I think it's better to wear a signal jacket.

Cheers,
Gunwolf

Gunwolf,
We usually used Schwarzwild also. The translation guide in the hunting text showed both, and I just wrote Sauwild to match up with Saufeder. I know the animals are color blind, but they see "brightness" and blaze orange shows up very bright. Even though we must wear it here, I still feel insulted. When I started hunting as a boy, we learned that the deer were the ones with 4 legs and antlers; and men were the ones with 2 legs and a rifle. With the new laws, young hunters think men are the ones with blaze orange, and deer are everything else. This is an accident waiting to happen.
Mike

I should have known Ford thrust a sword into something. But Ger, I can appreciate the dissertation on the Hirschfaenger or ornamental blade & but when one is in pursuit of wild game & it is thick bush that would make Cambodia look like Kansas. It matters not which blade I pull from my kit, when the gundogs tie up w/ bobcat, badger, feline, raccoon, etc. & even the Opossum, as long as it be a Puma, etc. to dispatch the issue @ the moment. I fancy the jadgnicker but any long blade would suffice in close quarters. And then there's occasional auto-deer collision where like a group of Coonasses we quickly neutralize & salvage what we can for dinner. This requires a couple of pieces of sharp cold steel.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

I have seen it, but maybe before you were born. It was not a Hirsch, but a Reh Bock and the blade was a jagd knicker(?).

Mike, this I've done by my self very often, and it's neccessary I can do it again. The blade is called a Jagdnicker named by the neck of a Reh Bock (nick = Genick). By this way you cut the nerves between the fist and second neck vertebrate immediately.
With a Hirschfaeger it's very dangerous to finish a hunt of a deer, nobody will do this, only on picture is shown this.
When we are hunting Schwarzwild, a "Saufeder" is in use. For the Fangschuss I use a .357Mag. S&W, best results.
Ger

Looking at the photo of Johann Kalezky 45-70; I wouldn't be surprised to find a Ferlach mark or two inside. Raimey, I hope you inspect it in person.

With kind regards,
Jani

.45-70 is on the left, then come a number of German and Austrian 11,5 mm cartridges for comparison.
I'll post the names tomorrow.

fuhrmann

Preliminary Datastring for 1900 - 11.5mm on 1st pass.
266.00.11'5


Final Pass Datastring 1900 & 1909 @ Vienna proof facility & for some reason it passed again in 1909? Final diameter of 11.6mm.
6024.00
1750.09


Parent case headstamp WRA 45-70.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

I really hope that Raimey is able to get to see this rifle & inspect the chambers as well as a good chamber cast. If the chambers appear original I bet a casting will reveal it to be other than a 45-70 but maybe close enough that 45-70 will chamber & fire. A good casting & an evening in Dixons book would tell the story! Would also really like to see the blade on that Forestry-Hunting-Shooting Hirschfanger.I think it could be identified in Collecting the edged weapons of Imperial Germany. I have the series & would be glad to help with some good photo's.

m-4

Raimey

a possible reason for the second date with the proofhouse is obtaining the Nitro stamp. I have a similar thing on one of my rifles: first BP proof in Vienna 1896, nitro reproof in 1943 (easily understood because the 1943 marks are so different).

The Nitro proof and the 1909 date might eliminate some of the cartridges in my line-up.

The Vienna proofhouse is still active - maybe they have the old ledgers still?
http://www.bmwfw.gv.at/TechnikUndVermessung/beschussaemter/Seiten/BeschussamtWien.aspx

fuhrmann

But September 13th, 1899 was the 1st date that Nitro proof was available so why wait till 1909 & w/ a purported black powder cartridge of 45-70, why would a Nitro proof be required? Was there a Nitro version of the 45-70 between 1900 & 1909? Yes, the proofhouse still has their ledger as far as I now. I believe Felix Neuberger has had success in obtaining info.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,

I can only offer guesses:
the rifle was made and bought with black powder in mind, and proofed accordingly. Around that time, say between 1890 and 1910, there was rapid change in ballistics - nitro powder, jacketed bullets, small calibers, repeating rifles - but also plenty of hunters who did not trust these modern things and wanted to stick to theit trusty smokepoles... Lots of heated debate going on in hunting and shooting journals, maybe worse than today.
So in my eyes it is possible that the rifle's owner at that time was not interested in nitro powder - no need to specify extra proof.
By 1909, he or the next owner changed his mind, and as a good citizen (and maybe still somewhat worried about the destructive risks of nitro powder) he showed up at the proof house...

My feeling is this was originally chambered in some .450 Express variant (Ger proposed this already, 11,5x60R Express), and only altered to .45-70 after it reached the US, after 1945.
Nevertheless, the .45-70 was known and even chambered on special order, so this possibility cannot be excluded - see next post!

Fuhrmann

Raimey,

see here from the 1910 Burgsmüller catalog.
The text in brief: we are constantly getting requests for special chamberings, from customers abroad. We can do this, for firm orders, pre-payment, special price, longer delivery time....

I'm well aware of such, but it is all predicated on it not originally being a 45-70. I believe to have been altered well prior to WWII. I wonder what Fred Adolph was doing in 1909?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Ah, you mean Fred Adolph picked it up while visiting Vienna in 1909, had it rechambered to .45-70, duly brought it to the Vienna proofhouse and then exported it to the USofA??

I have had my share of speculation and will better stop here. Any further clues must come from inspection of the gun and the case, obviously custom-made for the gun.
Or hopefully Oshans has some more knowledge about the rifle's history?
fuhrmann

Once again, I would really like to see this "original language "..!

Gunwolf

Here the cartridge names, as defined by my late father, many years ago.
From left to right:
.45-70
11,5x50R Werndl M67
11,5x40R Mauser base
11,5x50R (Mauser base or Bavarian Werder)
11,5x60R Mauser base
11,5x60R D 450 Express
11,5x63R D 450 Express ??
11,5x65R D 450 Express
11,5x70R D 450 Express
11,5x82,5 D450 Express

Quite a ripping yarn, but you know he immigrated to the U.S. of A. in 1908 after a stent @ one of the firearms merchant in Silesia being previously in Steyr in Austria & Webber in Zurich, Switzerland - according to his story? He may altered it & converted it to funds U.S. of A. to pay for his travel expenses. Wild, rampant speculation I'd say but someone had to have knowledge of the Imperial Eagle and its pre-WWI significance.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Yes, plenty of room for wild speculations!
I'd have more enthusiasm for this theory if the scope would still be there.
Without scope, it looks like a 1945 GI war trophy - you know, most hunting rifles were turned in without the scope then.

fuhrmann

Yeah, I know. I just don't think it was a WWII trophy of war. The glass would have been added later that '00 so is there anything in the manner of mounting glass atop that would warrant a trip back to the Vienna proof facility?

Cheers,

Raimey
sre

Also w/ the Boche(alboche) German sentiment in the U.S. of A. post WWI and forward till after WWII, I find it difficult that someone in the U.S. of A. would have ponied up much for the cobbled together lot. I realize there is Austria & Germany but they get lumped together. This scenario was the bulk of why Fred Adoph lost his shirt, and much more, in the sporting weapons arena.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

The idea that it is a WW2 war trophy is not far fetched, at all. When there is a German/Austrian gun, under consideration, that has mounts but no scope, the most likely cause is what furhmann said. Many GI bringbacks were just shot with what ever fit into the chamber. There are several German/Austrian cartridges whose chamber will accept a 45-70 cartridge. A fired case would show which "base" the original cartridge is based on, as would a chamber cast, which at the same time would reveal case length.
Mike

May be interesting for comparing the proofstamps:

http://www.feine-jagdwaffen.de/Waffengalerie/Archiv/Doppelbuechsen

Search for: Kaletzky (wrong written, but the rifle is true)

By the way, a very fine O/U combination example is here:

https://www.progun.de/de/shop/langwaffen...1&o=preis_d


Cheers,
Gunwolf

Yeah, no more far fetched than Adolph picking it up on one of his jaunts across the pond and then cobbling the case & accouterments together. I just don't see a hunter in the U.S. of A. seeing any significance of the Habsburg Eagle and if so, someone went to great lengths to deceive?



Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Raimey

I do not know when exactly this type of scope mounts was developed, but they are shown in a Springer catalog from 1914, also a list of ca. 30 different scopes to choose from.
Mounting a scope normally would not require reproof. The bases are fixed to the top rib, not to the barrels.

What are the "great lengths to deceive" you were mentioning?

fuhrmann

If the two cases above were fired in this rifle, they don't show drastic expansion, but the photo angle doesn't allow a good view. This is consistent with it being for one of the 11.5mm cartridges with a case length longer than 54mm, but depending on throat a 45-70 may chamber in an 11.5x52R chamber.
Mike

Verbiage from Guns.ru that accompanied the DR.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Moose Snoot of Sweden kindly provided the following:

1860 - a Kalezky aus Wien participates in shooting contest and ends up outside the podium (10), a Schellenberger won. I believe this to be the Johann Kalezky.

1863 – Johann Kaletzki, Büchsenmacher, Wien, Mariahilfer Hauptstraße No. 15. Patent for a Verbesserung der Zúndnadelgewehre. 1 year.

1872 – a K. Kalezky, Büchsenmachergehilfe passes in Lungentuberkolose.

1876 – a Büchsenmacher Johann Kaletzky. About a Hoftitel. Additional research is needed here to see if he received his Hoftitel that year. He is at least mentioned under the heading Hoftitel.

1877 – a Kalezky, Amalie, k.k. Hof-Büchsenmachers-Tochter, passes in Lungentuberkolose att the age of 24. Her abode/residence was at Mariahilferstraße 17.

1881 – Herr Johann Kalezky k,k, Hofbüchsenmacher, Wien, stays at the Gasthof zum goldenen Stern. Unsure as to where this Gasthof is situated.

1888 – Die Jubiläums-Gewerbe-Ausstellung, Wien. Der Kaiser speaks well of Kalezky´s Gewehre and Franz Paßler´s Repetir-Pistolen. Other people of interest at the Ausstellung are Gewehrfabrik Johann Springers Erben and Büchsenmacher A.(nton/Anton) Mulacz, another of our favourite makers.

1888 – “Der Kaiser hat zwei ihm vom Hof-Büchsenmacher Herrn Johann Kalezky in Wien angebotene Pürschstutzen, System Block, angenommen und demselben aus diesem Anlasse eine werthvolle Nadel zukommen lassen.”

1890 – Johann Kalezky's Widow's advert:



1895 – the establishment Hofbüchsenmacher Kalezky Mariahilferstraße 1B, advertises for a gunsmith who is familiar with Basquille-making.

1898 – Jubiläumsausstellung, Wien. Der Kaiser asks Frau Kalezky if she is running the company after her husband´s death. She replies: “Ja, Majestät, mit meinem Werkführer, der 27 Jahre im Hause ist.” The Werkführer then asks the Kaiser if he is familiar with their Gewehre to which the Kaiser replies: “Ja, bin sehr zufrieden, shießen sehr gut.”

1900 – Hofbüchsenmacher Kalezky advertises for a “Kräftiger Lehrbursche”. (Mariahilferstraße 3).

1908 – Hofgewehrlieferanten Hans Kaletsky visits the “Ballfest der Einjährig-Freiwilligen vom Train (Wiener Trainregimentes!).

1908 – Hans Kalezky, k. u k Hoflieferant, mit Schwester, Wien stays at Hotel zum goldenen Kreuz. Locale fo hotel needs to be confirmed & also a surprise that he had a sister!

1910 – Jagdausstellung. Hoffirma Johann Kalezkys Wwe, Mariahilferstraße 3. Hans Kalezky is present. So is the Kaiser.

1912 – Protestversammlung gegen die niederösterreichischer Jagdgesetznovelle; a Büchsenmacher Kalezky is mentioned and so is a Kommerzialrat Denk.

1912 – Joh. Kalezky´s Wwe k.u.k Hof-Gewehr-Lieferant adverizes miscellaneous guns. Adress given as Wien, 1., Burgring NR. 1.

1912 – Verband der österreichischen Büchsenmacher und Waffenhändler. Hans Kaetzky becomes Schriftfüher for the Verband. Obmann is Gustav Springer.

1913 – Joh. Kalezky´s Wwe, Burgring 1. Inhaberin Bertha Kalezky, Kaufmannswitwe, Wien. Hans Kalezky mentioned.

1922 – Joh. Kalezky, Wien, Capistrangasse 5, is mentioned as Generalvertreter for G. Roth´s Jagdpatrone Perfekt. Both “In- u. Ausland”.

1929 – Firma Johann Kalezky, Wien, Burgring Nr. 1. is mentioned in an article under the heading Der beschlagnahmten Sendungen an den Fürsten Starhemberg. Eine bemerkenswerte Feststellungen. Something a bit awry of fishy?

1930 – Joh. Kalezky, Burgring 1, bischer Büchsenmachergewerbe from now on also peddles Jagd- und Sportartikeln und deren Zugehör as well as Jagdschmuck.

1931 – Büchsenmacher und Waffenhändler Johann Kalezky, Wien, receives some award. Büchsenmacher Franz Denk also mentioned as receiving an award.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Composed info on Johann Kalezky on a DGS BBS thread:

I'd 1st guess the maker is Johann Kalezky of Vienna. He ranks pretty high on my list of makers, but then again so do many others. It would be a delight to see some pics and to determine if the longarm was made inhouse or souced. There may be an article in one of the up-coming GGCA(German Gun Collectors Association - www.germanguns.com ) with some info on Johan Kalezky. There's some speculation that Johann Kalezky was the point source for A. Henry falling block actions within the Austro-Hungarian empire. Your calibre might be 9mm.

Johann Kalezky more than likely was born near Weipert and in guessing that he was typical of gunmakers I'd say he was 23 or 24 years old when he received his master's sheepskin as in 1845 he opened a shop in Vienna(Wien) at Mariahilferstrasse 17. So subtracting 23 or 24 years from 1845 would yield his birth-date. At any rate he continued on until 1889 when the lone bell tolled for Johann and Bertha Kalezky, and maybe Johann Jr.?, took the reins. Johann Kalezky peddled about 100 less than 3000 weapons, with some being sourced in the white from gunmaking centers like Suhl and I’d guess Weipert. A guess on his yearly production would be around 2 dozen to 3 dozen per year. He was in an excellent location near the capital building and in 1872 had the privilege of making an example for the Austrian Emperor. He also made examples for Franz Joseph and Franz Ferdinand, whose collection may have been dispersed during WWI. Johann Kalezky’s firm continued until 1937 when it closed it doors.

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=204060&page=1

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

1930 Johann Kalezky Wien 1 Burgring


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Lets contribute to cut this Gordic-Kalezky-knot:
1. The case is to the best of my knowledge NOT of Kalezky origin.
His cases have some distinctive features which are not present here.
2. Vienna proofhouse records DO exist, but due to decision of
the ministry-legal-counsel NO access for private persons like me. The owner could try via a gunmaker/diplomatic channel to get an answer on the record contents.
3. The 4-digit proof nr of 1900 has another shape/form than the one from 1909 (speculation on preproof by the barrelmaker...?)
4. the 1909 nr. : If you get as answer from the proofhouse
"lancaster 11,6", it would not cut the knot (lancaster is a generic middle-european name for hammergun/rifle, 11,6 the calibre ...)
5.To my knowledge Kalezky records do not exist, the last entry I have seen with his name has been an address in Vienna ca 1942, I do not know if he was killed in the WWII bombing raids onto Vienna or how he was lost.
6. Its fun to see my DGJ-article on Kalezky being transposed to an Russian forum and now translated back from Russian to English.
7. Correct would be to make a chamber cast and ask a gunmaker
if he can recommend reproof or better keep it as it is as an objet-de-vitrine.
Felix Neuberger
PS: If genuine Kalezky product then there should be
a 4-digit serial nr, in case year 1900 prevails it could be 20xx,
in case of year 1909 it could be 273x.

Thanks again to Moose Snoot of Sweden for trolling the bowels of the internet for info. Possibly we should don him k.k. Moose Snoot of Sweden for his contributions?


Joseph Kolezky, gewes. Büchsnemacher....



Herr Johann Koletzky, k.k. Hof-Büchsenmacher, mit Gattin, aus Wien.


Felix:

I'm not sure I follow you on the "1900" stamp: are you saying it is not a proofhouse stamp? Could the dies have been worn and were changed out by 1909?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Aelgmule, how do you find all this?

the first is a death notice:
Joseph Koletzky, former (gewesener, not active at this time) gunmaker, aged 38 years, address im Lichtenthal No. 52, of hydrothorax
(whatever this was, tuberculosis, lung cancer?)

the other a note that Johann Koletzky and wife are staying at the Golden Star inn, but what city?

I don't recall who posted this, but I cannot find a serial number on this 1898 hammergun DR with similar screw on water-table with locks bearing Kalezky's name. It did experience reproof in the early 1970s.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Felix:

What say you on this double-headed Imperial Eagle, surmounted by a crown?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, I sent the link. What about the number on the buttplate, 2501..?



Cheers,
Gunwolf

Many thanks there Gunwolf, as somehow I didn't save that image. So can it be stated that J. Kalezky's wares wear the serial number on the buttplate?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Only buttplate image I have for now. The custodian of the subject J. Kalezky DR is not able to meet w/ me till next weekend or so. Hopefully then we'll have additional data.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

to Raimey:
Imperial eagle:
My DGJ articles (Court suppliers summer 2006, Springer summer 1997)
had images of imperial eagles ; first from a poster ex museum shop of the imperial mansion in Bad Ischl, the second from a box-cover ex
Springer. Both show a similar/equal central element like this one here.
Kalezky serial numbers should be found on the trigger tang where
one holds the stock.
Number 2051 could fit as I did guess for 1900.
(But have seen Kalezky pair and single without any serial nr. at all).
Felix Neuberger

Lifted to show the Sankt Stephen's Crown on the right & the badge/shield betwixt the Crowns is the one of subject.


Double headed Imperial Eagle surmounted by a crown w/ badge/shield on its breastplate being the same as the crowned shield between the Austrian Crown on the left & Hungarian/Sankt Stephen's Crest on the right.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

The reason Kalezky was present @ Bad Ischl must have either been the spa @ Bad Ischl or the potential clients who visited the spa @ Bad Ischl.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,

the crest in the middle of the eagle is the family crest of Habsburg-Lothringen and also the "small" crest of the Austrian Empire, see here:

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habsburg-Lothringen


Dynastiewappen[Bearbeiten | Quelltext bearbeiten]
Das Hauswappen der Dynastie Habsburg-Lothringen ist zweimal gespalten; vorn auf goldenem Grund ein blaugekrönter, blaubewehrter und blaugezungter roter Löwe (das Stammwappen Habsburgs), mittig auf rotem Grund ein silberner Balken (= rot-weiß-rot, Österreich), hinten auf goldenem Grund ein roter Schrägbalken, der Richtung des Balkens nach belegt mit drei silbernen gestümmelten Adlern (das Stammwappen Lothringens). Das Wappen wurde auf kaiserlichem Doppeladler geführt und war in dieser Form neben seiner Funktion als Familienwappen seit 1804 auch das „kleine Wappen“ des Kaisertums Österreich.

Cheers,
Gunwolf

Oh, that was what Ger posted earlier. So the badge/shield represents the marshalled arms of the Habsburg, Babenberg and Lorraine kin and that is as far as it will take you in determining the family?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

That is what we intended to say. This crest belonged to the ruling house Habsburg-Lothringen. But it was also the official emblem of the Austrian empire, used between 1806 and 1915.
As such, it was displayed on countless state offices, agencies, railroads etc etc.. So it will not lead you any further here.

The double crest you showed above was introduced only in 1915, to finnally (and a bit late) include the Hungarian part of the empire.

fuhrmann

Oshans & I will get together in the coming weeks over mate or chimichurri & some grilled meat. Then we'll have additional data.


This is not the lock of the subject sporting weapon, but some Kalezky lock image I lifted & for now I can't recall. But does anyone know upon what lock this platform is based?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

I'm going to make an outlandish correlation & say the lock is the pictured Joh. Kalezky Witwe.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

For those following along, I haven't forgotten about the Gordian-Kalezky Knot, but just have been busy; therefore, a pox on me. But hopefully late this week additional info will be acquired & I will get it posted.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

After some preliminary measurements, 11.6X65R it would appear it may approach the 450 2 1/2"



10,8mm by E. Joris & Co. @ the Liege proof facility. Then in 1900 it passed the Wien proof facility @ 11,5mm and again in
1909 @ 11,6mm. More to come.



Cheers,

Raimey
rse

11,6X65R - 450 2 1/2"

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
Rim thickness & base taper will tell the tale. Measure the depth of the rim recess in the extractor & several measurement of base dia. starting in front of rim then in .25" increments. The D case will have most of its taper in the 1st 3/4" in front of the rim then taper becomes more gradual over the remaining length. These were thin rim cases (Note EXP39 pic provided above)


m-4

On the average, 2.5mm on the rim thickness there M4. I'll attempt to obtain some diameter data but then again all I made was a wax cast, which has some ebb & flow, and even though we may narrow the pool of cartridges to a few, as you & Ford note, cobble together some cases & call it what you fancy.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Anyone have a handle on just how many double rifles & combos that Kalezky might have peddled? Did he favour British calibres? Where might the Gordian-Kalezky Knot King Felix be on the issue?

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=321572&page=1

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post315107


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
In your call, you said the cartridge was an "A"base(MB) one. The photos above are 450 base. The cases I advised for the cartridge you described, will not work with 450 base cartridges. BTY, I don't consider Wax chamber casts reliable for taking measurements, only for general size/shape.
Mike

Yeah, Ford I had just dropped a inverted 45-70 into the recess and guessed it to be an A base.

@ 0.25" - 0.525" Diameter
@ 0.50" - 0.500" "
@ 0.75" - 0.500" "
@ 1.00" - 0.480" "

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,

Felix gave some numbers here:
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=459762#Post459762
In 1900, the Kalezky shop sent 19 guns to the Vienna proofhouse, 16 of these were shotguns.

That wax cast resembles a 11,5x65R or.450 Express, german form (rim diameter ca. 15.5 mm, head diam. 13.78 mm, quickly tapering, rim thickness ca. 1.06 mm, measurement taken off a GR / Roth case).
But this chamber apparently wants a much thicker rim.
Since you had a .45-70 cartridge at hand - would that chamber?

fuhrmann

Many thanks fuhrmann & yes the short chambered 0.45-70 would chamber & fire and there was a separation of say 3" on a target @ 30m, according to the custodian of the Kalezky. So your dimension of 1.06mm would be tolerable.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
By your dimensions above, it can't be a 450 based cartridge(.544" case head), so it is likely an MB based cartridge(.516" case head- chamber would be larger). You should be able to use Starline 45-90 or longer Win/Sharps 45 cal cases, by moving the rim forward to approximate the MB.
Mike.

Ford, you are correct and the preliminary / original plan was to use 45-90 cases. But I'm not sold either way on the case. Diameter is something close to 0.6".

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Did you mean 0.616"?

Cheers,

Riamey
rse

Measured some cartridges - all in mm:

Cartridge - rim diam. - base diam. - rim thickness
11.5x65R /.450 Exp. - 15.50 - 13.78 - 1.06
11.15x60R Mauser - 14.88 - 13.06 - > 2
.45-70 - 15.15 - 12.74 - 1.76

I would not expect any original cartridge with Mauser base:
a) base diameter too narrow
b) most of these were bottle-necked

My guess still is this was a .450 Express that at some time was made to fit .45-70 cartridges - clever Bubba solution...
Comparing cartridges, only the recess for the rim needs to be cut deeper - maybe a .45-70 reamer wasn't even needed.
A fired .45-70 case should tell the story.

I can't think of any other cartridge that might fit, but I hope to get hold of a pre WWI G. Roth catalog later this week, maybe there are more suggestions.

fuhrmann

Base could easily be 15.5mm w/ the variation in the wax. Poor notes, but it looks as if I mic-ed the base hole in the tubeset @ 0.6"??

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
No, I meant .516" head diameter. The largest diameter you measured was .525", and the chamber must be larger than the cartridge. You can't fit a .544" 450 head cartridge into a .525" hole. When I say "head diameter", don't get it confused with rim diameter( for MB base rim is .585", but .595" fits most rim recesses).
fuhrmann,
MB cartridges were available in calibers larger than 11.15, and longer than 60mm.
Mike

Ah Ford, one can always neck it down a bit.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Spent cartridge & note the thick rim?


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
Yes, the 45-70 rim is thicker than some similar Brit. and European cartridges, but some Brit. cartridges came in two different rim thicknesses in the same nominal designations. The MB rim is over 2mm and being able to ID this rim is a great help in IDing the cartridge, but misIDing it sends everyone down the wrong path. The 45-70 rim can be modified to fit either "thin" or "thick" rims as well as MB cartridges. The head diameter needs to be within range of the target cartridge. The 50 cal Win. and Sharps cases can be adapted to other Brit. and European cartridges in a similar manner.
Mike

Ford, I can read your verbiage, but what does it all mean & what is the subject cartridge?


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Looks like Starline 45-70 Govt has the thicker rim.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
You are the one that posted the above photo, pointing out the thicker rim. The subject cartridge is the one you called me about, describing it as a MB cartridge, then it somehow became a 450 based cartridge.If you don't understand what it means, maybe that is the cause of the confusion.
Mike

Ford, it is most easy to armchair quarterback while I put all the effort & extensive effort & expense to ferret out the demon so if you are beyond error, please inform us peons what it is. You sit there & command from afar while others expend money & effort while you thru you grace give us the answers. So if you have a better solution, please step forward and give us the answers from above. I am human and are subject to error while you & Axel E. are without error and are a Godsend to us. So please inform the masses to what the cartridge to what it might be. Armchair quaterbacks are utmost to the person to ferret out the demons. So grace us w/ you wisdom as to what it is. Otherwise, contribute to the effort & help the cause. If you do not concur, march to Cornith, Ms. & give your findings. The ball is in you court.

Raimey
rse

So Ford, if you are w/out error like Axel E., please step us & inform us as to what the chambering might be, otherwise, take a back seat & invest some time & $ and then tell us what exactly the chambering might be. Awe us w/ your wisdom.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
Whoever said I am without error? It was certainly not I. You are the one that asked the question for which you now complain about the answer. You are the one that provided the dimensions upon which my answer was based. I can only depend on dimensions provided by others, when I have no opportunity to take the measurements myself. As my father opined many years ago, "you can't make chicken salad out of chicken $h1t, it doesn't matter how much mayonnaise you add". If you will go back and check all my postings in this and other boards, you will find multiple cases of mistakes I have quickly admitted to. As a former Senator from Tennessee said once in a hearing " if you have to eat crow, it's better to eat it warm". Maybe my mistake, this time, was answering your question, in the first place. I don't understand why you brought Axel into this, but I will allow him to address his own actions, if he cares to.
Mike

Mike,
I am not convinced.
The .525 diameter was taken 1/4'' or ca 6 mm below the base - quite the same as on my .450 Express cartridge. Not easy to measure exactly due to the conical shape. But real base diameter definitely will be even larger, possibly oversize for a MB cartridge.
fuhrmann

fuhrmann,
If you have the rifle and chambercast "in hand", you are in a better position to know the dimensions, than I. If you believe it is a 450 base cartridge, I suggest you obtain an empty 450-400/ 3" case( currently available from Hornady, I believe), and try it in the chamber. If the caliber of the rifle is as large as described, this case should have enough taper and a small enough neck to fit into your chamber, if it is for a 450 base cartridge. If it doesn't chamber, I suggest you "smoke" the case with a candle, lighter, or magic marker, and find where the interference is. If the interference is at the base, it is not a 450 base chamber, if it is in the neck/shoulder area; either size or cut off the case, and try again. If it fits, this time, then you have a source of cases( or if you find it more economical, you might try modifying Starline 50-110 Win. cases). If it still doesn't chamber, you should relook MB cases.
Mike

Mike
I am in the same position as you, no hands on the rifle, but interested and trying to be helpful.
What I have is a small collection of old hunting cartridges, so I can take measurements for reference .
Having rifle, reference cartridges and information all in one place would make things easier.


Raimey
I recently got some reprints of period (say 1900 to 1920) case catalogs: Utendörffer, Egestorff, Roth, DWM.
Besides the already discussed suspects (.450 Express or MB/Mauser base) I see no further hot candidates.
Without more and exact chamber dimensions my knowledge ends here.

My next idea to understand what the original chambering was would be to contact the Vienna proofhouse.

Alternatively, just to make the rifle shoot again with proper ammunition (you do not need to know the original cartridge designation for this) , to obtain exact bore and chamber dimensions and proceed as Mike proposed above.

Although .45-70 cartridges can be chambered, in my eyes this is not a .45-70 rifle.
Potentially dangerous with modern hot loads (+P or whatever they are called).
.45-70 cases will be signifantly undersize at the case head, I think you will see some "swelling" of the fired case below the rim - not as much as possible, but I assume this is luckily a modern case with thick walls at the case head.
Using old-type balloon head .45-70 cases possibly might result in split case heads.

That the rifle will not "regulate" properly with .45-70 cartridges is no surprise.
This depends on bullet weight, powder load etc., and one must try to find out these things.

fuhrmann

fuhrmann,
When I make 11.15x51R cases from 45-70, or 11.15x60R from 45-90, they do, indeed, expand. In these cases, there is no problem. I turn the rims to .595", instead of .585", so the rim centers the case in the chamber and insures even expansion. This is after reforming the rim to MB type. I had head separations with CIL factory cases that turned out to be balloon head. I also saw 43 Spanish factory case (UMC ca 1912) blow the head out. They turned out to be folded head cases, fired with .080" excess headspace( one barrel thread). Extreme care must be taken with old cases, and the shoulder must mot be set back in hand loading. Dies should be set to just "kiss" the shoulder, instead of the shellholder hitting the die. You are absolutely right to be concerned about this. You are also right that the name of the cartridge doesn't matter if you can make cases and bullets that fit. The Mallmart is not going to have any, anyway.
Mike

Mike
that's interesting, I had exactly the same happening with a 11,2x51R Kropatschek-Heissig (that is what my late father determined it to be, I know there are several variations possible, but definitely it is of MB type). With both vintage Utendörffer and also CIL/Dominion cases and a slight headspace (this due to reforming from 11.15x60R with suboptimal sizing dies) there were head separations or sometimes a split head, all this with black powder.
No problems with reformed BELL basic cases - quite "vintage" too nowadays..
Anyway I believe that in the old days shooters must have been very careful to use cases of exact base diameter and shape.
Modern brass is much more "forgiving".
fuhrmann

To Oshans:
A. To the best of my understanding this case did not see the
bench of a Kalezky guncase maker nor did it see the
Kalezky shop featuring in attached photo.
http://www.jpgbox.com/page/51374
- Photo courtesy police headquarter -
(See my neighbouring thread "Kalezky-ana et al."
on genuine Kalezky guncase labels and features)
B. Whatever the cartridge-guru-universe of this forum
finds out/clarifies on the real cartridge of this
rifle PLEASE LET IT REPROOF - repeat LET IT REPROOF -
and dont pull the trigger on it.
C. If you think this is not cool then I recommend
you to visit a notary and dictate to him your last
will and have it properly signed.
Sincerely
Felix Kassandra

fuhrmann,
Modern brass will also give problems, mainly rimmed and belted cases. Often the chambers are reamed too long, since the headspace is usually measured from the front of the rim or belt. When the shoulder in the chamber is too far forward, the headspace can still be correct. This sets up a condition where the shoulder is set back at every sizing and then blown forward at the next firing. This will cause head separations. The same thing can happen if the sizing die/shell holder combination causes the neck to be set back. Older rimmed cartridges such as 303 British, 30-30, etc are known for short case life. Even more modern wildcats such as 357 Herrett require precise fitting of fired cases to the chamber. I set dies for even rimless cartridges to "kiss" the shoulder, even though they don't give as many problems. I think in the old days, there wasn't as much handloading, especially in Europe( as always you will find exceptions). Many of those that did handload, such as 8.15x46R shooters,did so in in-resized cases, which fit the chamber. The loading tools we are accustomed to are a relatively modern thing.
Mike

Hello,

The Label has been re-created by a collector. He also made one for a Wilhelm Foerster. I emailed him years ago and asked him where he found it. He was very upfront with how he made it and there is no intent to deceive as both the printed label and case are new.

Ric Hill