Hi all, I have a nice 16 gauge Merkel drilling and am considering using the Brenneke 2.5 inch slugs in one or both barrels. The gun is in very nice condition but the barrels seemed tight in diameter when I measured them a few years ago. I can't remember exactly what they measured but remember thinking the bore was on the tight side for a 16 gauge. Is it going to be okay to shoot the above slugs through these tightly bored barrels? I expect it will be okay but just wanted to get the helpful opinions of the board members here first. And I think I remember hearing on this forum that there was a standard barrel that was traditionally loaded with a slug. Was it the right barrel or left? Thanks, Ron

My Merkel was regulated to shoot 2.5" Brennekes from the left barrel. It was built in 1939 and I have a copy of the original order sheet on it.

Vol, Thanks very much for the reply. I will try the 2.5" Brenneke's in the left barrel as I believe my Merkel is from about the same time period.

I have shot the 2.5 brenneke in both pre-war Neptun and Simson with good results. The Simon exhibited an exemplary pattern.

Thank you for the help. I plan to try it out this evening if possible. Ron

Well I took this Merkel drilling and a combination gun out for some shooting and what I found is the drilling with a 2.5" Brenneke slug would not hit a target 18" x 18" at 50 yards. Was shooting over the target. I tried both shotgun barrels with the popup sight and even tried it without the pop up site and never even hit the 18" square box I was using for a target....Hmmm.... I did try a few rounds of 8 x 57jr S&B ammo after removing and putting the scope back on and the 3 shot round I shot was right back on zero and about a 1/4" group. I was very pleased with this as this is the gun I installed my own scope and rings to fit the claw mount bases on last fall (or was it 2 falls ago LOL). I had gotten quite a bit of help from folks on this forum so thank you very much for a successful project regarding the claw mount rings.

But back to the slugs. So, couple of questions about sights and drillings in general. When I am testing the slugs should I be using the scope? Should I be shooting them through the small pop up site? What distance should I be sighting in at? I was trying 50 yards. My hunch is that with a drilling you would normally want the slug to be in the left barrel? Is this the normal use? And I would think normally the scope was not used or installed when shooting shot or slugs through the shotgun barrels? Or would the user try and have the slug regulated to shoot with both the scope installed or not installed and just using the pop up iron sight? How about with the rifle round? Did the user attempt to have the rifle round regulated for both use with a scope and without?

So, all this just really got me to wondering how were drillings used and how were they regulated particularly when scopes became popular? Seems like it would be difficult to have a slug regulated to work with and without the scope? and the same for a rifle round?

The good news is that the combination gun which is a 16 over 8 x 57jr shot great with the scope removed and put back on so excellent return to zero. And the slugs with the scope or without grouped nicely but about 2" low and to the right at 50 yards. At least they were hitting the target LOL.

Thanks in advance for any help or thoughts on this topic.
Ron

rfrankhauser,
In general, except for a few "bespoken" ones, drillings were made( therefore "regulated") without any scope or mounts. Some very recent drillings were made with provisions for mounting scopes, but these are not the ones we are discussing. The sights were adjusted (filed) using one particular load, that may or may not be available now. They were regulated at an available range, which could have been 60, 80, or 100 meters. I suggest you try the slugs at a longer distance. You should shoot from cold barrels, drilling barrels are known to be very stiff and stable. However when one barrel is hot, it elongates and shifts the point of impact(worse with sxs combination barrels). When you get the drilling sighted in with whatever ammo, sights, distance, and POI you choose; you are pretty much stuck with wherever the slugs shoot. If you insist on using the slugs, the best you can do is find where they impact and learn to "hold off". In my own drillings, I usually have small shot in the left shotgun barrel, an einstecklauf ( insert barrel) in the right, and the large rifle; so I don't worry about slugs. FWIW, with an o/u combination, by "holding over", I could keep Brennekes (67.5mm case length)in a hat size group at 100 meters, and still loaded shot in that barrel.
Mike

Mike, Thank you very much for the information. Sounds like from what you are saying step one is to find a rifle load (in this case 8 x 57jr) that shoots to point of aim with the metal sights or possibly modify the metal sights if required or a little of both. Then adjust the scope to match the rifle cartridge and particular load that is regulated for the drilling. At this point if you are lucky the slugs may regulate also but not necessarily. If not then learn the gun and adjust holdover, etc or try different slugs and see if any work better.

Thanks, Ron

Mike, Would the use of slugs in a drilling be out of the norm for traditional use in Germany? Were slugs commonly (traditionally) used in drilling and combination guns? Was the traditional use to have shot in the left barrel, the insert barrel in the right and of course the rifle cartridge in the bottom barrel?

Would buckshot have been common in the left barrel? My hunch is that buckshot was not used much in Germany for hunting.

Mike, thanks a bunch for the help. I really like the drillings and combo guns and trying to understand how they were traditionally used.

Thanks

Ron,
While some hunters used buckshot before the war, while I was there it was not legal on cloven hoofed game. Slugs were legal and were used. How they were loaded depended on the type of hunt and tradition in the local area( used in areas with woods and pigs/Red Deer; not as much in areas with fields, small game. If loaded in left barrel, the slug could be fired with rear trigger w/o changing the barrel selector. As long as it was safe, I don't know of any rule on how to load the drilling(ie other hunters wouldn't like it very much if the rifle was loaded in a circle drive).
Mike

Ron, I would not modify the metal sights on a drilling. Modify the shot placement by reloading or changing brands. The drillings I have owned have shot slugs more accurately from the right barrel, but I will yield to other's experience. The sights will be regulated for iron sight shooting, but scope shooting it will not matter, because you will be making internal adjustments with the scope. If there is mechanical windage adjustment on the rear ring I will say this...put some removable locktite on it so that it will not inadvertently get adjusted without your knowledge.

I agree with Steve, the idea is if you find or make a load that shoots to the original sights, then there is a better chance the slug will too (although maybe at a different distance).
Mikr

Thanks Steve and Mike for your help.

So, sounds like I should start the process by finding or reloading (which I do) a load that will shoot well with the original iron sights. Then I can of course adjust the scope to match the load that works with the iron sights. If I am really lucky the slug load (2.5" Brenneke's) may also shoot well with the iron sights but if not possibly try some other slug loads or reload some various slug loads. Actually, though I already know the Brenneke's slugs shoot quite high using the iron sights but I might be able to find some slugs or reload some slugs that shoot closer to the iron sights.

It may be awhile before I can get out and try this. We are in the middle of our short two week deer season so not at the range much right now. Trying to hunt when I can right now.

Thanks,
Ron

rfrankhauser,
If you find a combination that shoots well with iron sights, there is a good chance it will shoot well with scope( I wouldn't say this about a double rifle).Of course you can try other slugs if you want, but I doubt if any would best Brenneke. If you are not satisfied with slugs at the rifle's sight in range, try it at some other range, say 35 meters, and you might be surprised.
Mike

Ron, pattern test both shotgun barrels to see where they shoot and at what distance the two patterns converge. The slug will shoot to the point of convergence, or cross over the iron sight hold after that distance, most likely. If the gun patterns high with both shot and slugs, then one last trick may suffice IF you don't mind a minor modification to the bores. That is, in the drillings I have owned which shot high, having the forcing cones lengthened lowered the shot pattern a consistent six inches-ditto for the slug impact. Don't know why, and discovered it by accident, but it worked for me...One last point--shoot the slugs without the flip up rear sight used for the rifle. Shoot with the bead flat to the rib, and you will lower the slug's impact point. Steve