Hi guys my first post to the forums and hopefully one of many!

A local gun shop has a H. Leue of Berlin double rifle for sale and I am definitely interested in acquiring it. I have done some research and determined it is nitro proofed and made before 1912 (the load markings and N with crown proof). There are a few other proofs of which I cannot determine their meaning: a resting lion, 118/35, the two S runes on the barrels, the U with a crown, and the eagle.

I also apologize if this is bad etiquette, but I was also hoping you could help establish a value on it... the shop has it on consignment with asking of $2800. Here are the particulars.

>side safety (left side)
>rib says "H. LEUE, HOFBUCHSENMACHLE, BERLIN
>right hand comb
>9.3x74r (confirmed by chamber cast no visible caliber markings I can decipher)
>action feels tight and not shot out, no perceptible play
>extractors
>lots of engraving
>flip up rear leaf and fixed rear leaf
>locking bolt across top of action
>scope mount over right barrel
>double trigger
>on the lever that opens the action it has a crown with 7 tines and the monogram OG or GO (7 tines supposedly means baron).
>I'd say approximately 70-80% overall NRA antique. Maybe as low as 60%. Mechanically working but dings and scratches from use. Small splotch of rust and one white spot from small gouge under forearm. Bores look excellent.
>there are no known accessories, scope, case, paperwork, ammo, or reloading equipment included

I'm working on adding pictures but in the mean time the s/n is 1689.

Edit - Got pics

Run & pay them @ the opening bell in the am tomorrow. S in a Chevron denotes the tubes & effort was sourced from the Schilling forge. 118/35 is the bore diameter & I'd make sure it is 9,3X74R - Ford has a good life lesson.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, Thanks for the info and quick response!

For the bore diameter, how is that interpreted to mean a 9.3mm or whatever it actually happens to be bullet?

The chamber cast looked to be exactly 9.3x74r (that is a reasonably unique looking cartridge). It is included with the gun. It was supposedly test fired successfully in this cartridge after casting. Looking over two different editions of cartridges of the world, I didn't see anything else in the 9.3 size that looked anywhere close to 9.3x74r. Do you have any idea of what it might be, a wild cat or obsolete? Or even better, an obsolete wildcat?

Also what do you mean by "tubes & effort".

9,3X72R S&S is similar nnd possibly a few other proprietary rounds. Make case measurements @ rim, base, neck, etc. of the chamber cast. I believe 118,35 was a 8,64mm plug gauge.

The Schilling forge took some bar stock & converted it into a tube & then performed some additional task like profiling or rifling.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Lovely, just lovely fences. I haven't closely examined, but the trademark of the lion lying in repose should have Leue on the body. Pleasure us with an image of the muzzle.

http://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=157111&page=1

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I was just thinking, probably borders on danger, but I think the 9,3X74R & the 3,5 grams of GBP were more coupled with the 108,49(8,89mm) plug gauge stamp than the 118,35 but the variation is only one choice. Plug gauge fella might have felt poorly on Monday whilst he was pushing. Theose plug gauge numbers are the same as 10 bore, 12 bore, 16 bore, etc. being the number of lead spheres to the British pound. At one point the French had their contorted equation to their unit of measure.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Any double rifle that is tight to face, has no problems with the barrels delaminating at the ribs, has decent bores, no other mechanical issues and is in the condition that one appears to be is easily worth $2,800. As Raimey said, be there this morning at the opening bell, pay the man and run like you stole it....because you just about did. If you don't, tell me where this shop is located. I paid more than that for a much older German double rifle over 20 years ago

Raimey mentioned the 9.3 X 72R Sauer and that's correct, it is similar. The 9.3 X 75R Nimrod is even closer in appearance. Easiest way is to measure the chamber cast at the rim, head, case body and length from rim to shoulder and compare them to 9.3 X 74R dimensions. They will be a bit larger than the actual cartridge but close enough to know.

I believe the use of the plug gauge to denote caliber was dropped after 1912/13 so that would date the rifle before then. Others with a better memory than mine should be along to confirm or deny that.

Thanks guys for the additional info, I didn't actually take a picture of the muzzle end to share; is there something in particular you are looking for? There were no proofs on the face of rib/piece that joins the barrels at the end (looking down through the barrels), I do not know about on the underside.

The lion in repose was intriguing to me, I'm used to seeing it as a sterling/watch proof lol.

The only other pictures I have show the damage and the fore end; I'll add them for giggles.

I think I will be going down after it today once the shop opens!

Well guys on your advice I ran out and bought it. I was able to talk the price down to $2400 out the door!

Now that it is in my possession, there are no proofs anywhere near the muzzle end. The bottom front of the fore end has what appears to be a horn insert and the trigger guard is the same material.

None of the screws have any perceptible markings on them and all the engraving still lines up perfectly so the gun shop tells me it is doubtful it was ever opened.

Also included in the documentation, was a verbal story about the provenance (war bring back) the test fired cartridges (do not yet have them) and receipts and notes from a gunsmith for looking over the firearm to make sure it is safe, test firing it, and chamber casting it.

I'll get some more picture up to show you the whole package soon.

In the mean time, can you point me to a good resource for load data for antique guns? I still plan to recast the chamber before committing time and money to acquiring any particular ammo and to keep the gun safe!

Any tips on maintaining and caring for it as well as methods of preservation/for long term storage? I do plan to keep it a shooter if possible so recommended cleaning materials as well?

L3n4rd,
You did good buying it.The 118.35 gauge usually equates to a groove diameter of .357-.359", instead of .365-.366"for 9.3x74R. Raimey mentioned 9.3x72R S&S;it is so similar to 9.3x74R, that I shot 6 Red Deer with mine using 74R ammo, before finding out the mistake.It only blew one primer.It doesn't matter much which case you need, you can make ammo to use, and have fun doing it.If you think that is too much trouble, I will be happy to give your money back.
Mike

A very good DR indeed. The seven-pointed crown suggests the original owner was a baron/freiherr.

With kind regards,
Jani

Good for you!!!!! I'd be grinnin' like a possum eatin'.....well...you know. Once you ascertain the actual cartridge there's more than a few on here who can help you with loads and development. As Mike has often pointed out to me, it doesn't matter what it's chambered to, brass can be formed/made from something and you can call it what you want. Bullet molds are available from several sources and can be made in the proper weight and diameter. With 2 fired cases Dave at CH-4D can make proper loading dies without breaking the bank. If it is indeed the 9.3 X 74R data and components abound. When you make a new chamber cast add a couple inches and you will pick up the bore also.

I assume Raimey wanted to see the muzzles for any possible damage or excessive wear.

As far as maintenance, pretty much like any other firearm. The only difference would be to keep the hinge pin lightly greased but that holds true on any break action firearm. Recently I cleaned and lightly greased the hinge pins on all my break action firearms. One or two benefitted greatly, others you couldn't tell the difference...but it's been done, is better and I feel better about having done it.

GOOD ON YOU!!! Congratulations and forgive me for a bit of envy...

About a week ago I was perusing the auction sites and I came across a Zeiss Zielvier from the pre-War era with a very strange set of rings on it. They extended some distance to the right of the scope tube and appeared to be fitted with female dovetails. Not until I saw the scope mount base on your rifle did I grasp what they were intended for.

I went back and scoured all the sites I had looked at, but evidently the auction was over and unlike on eBay, there is no way of finding the results of a closed auction on eGun. I'll keep my eyes open and should it come up, again I'll notify you.

I went back and looked at one site I had neglected, German eBay, and there it was: http://www.ebay.de/itm/WH-Zielfernrohr-Zielvier-von-Carl-Zeiss-fruehe-Version-Top-Zustand-mit-Koecher-/191601801995?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_77&hash=item2c9c5b7b0b&nma=true&si=LETjngBTlwbw446rQhuH8iZphrs%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Thanks for that info and that's an excellent find! I'll be keeping an eye on German ebay from now on and brushing up on my German a little bit...

Here are a few more pics of it overall and the muzzle end. The bore is still a little bit dusty from being upright on the shelf in the gun shop; I haven't run any patches through it yet. I'll be back with more info once I get the chamber cast done and slug the bore.

Thanks again guys!

Neat
Thank you
I look forward to a further report
Mike

Ok all I've got the chamber casts! I'm not 100% what to make of them yet; at this point picking from only the cartridges I know, I'm leaning towards 9.3x74r based on the shoulder diameter and the OAL. However, here are some pics and the results posted below.

Right Chamber
OAL - 2.9425 (closer to x74)
Base Diameter - .4775 (closer to x72 Sauer)
Shoulder - .412 (closer to x74)
Neck - .3905 (closer to x72 Sauer)
2nd Neck - .392
Groove Diameter - .3625
Neck taper is very slight, looking at picture is looks closer to x74
Measured 1hr 20min after cast.

Left Chamber
OAL - 2.960 (closer to x74)
Base Diameter - .4725 (closer to x72 Sauer)
Shoulder - .411 (closer to x74)
Neck - .390 (closer to x72 Sauer)
2nd Neck - .393
Groove Diameter - .362
Neck taper is very slight, looking at picture is looks closer to x74
Measured 1hr 2min after cast.

1st pic shows a visual comparison of 9.3x72r Sauer & 9.3x74r
It is from Cartridges of the World 4th Edition 1980. My Purpose here is to compare the shoulder angles.


2nd pic shows the cast of the left chamber & beginning of bore. I am only posting the left cast as the pics came out better but I do have pics of the right chamber cast.


3rd pic shows a visual comparison of a 9.3x74r snap cap from A-Zoom with the chamber cast. Comparing the shoulder angle to the snap cap and the the first picture it seems to more closely match x74.


4th pic is a close up to attempt to show the similarity of the neck between the snap cap and the cast.


5th pic shows my measurements and sketches to show where I took the measurements. The numbers in the bottom corner are when an hour was up after casting and when I measured. The x72 or x74 are the cartridges those dimensions were closer to.


6th pics shows the case measurement data I used, it is taken from Cartridges of the World 4th Edition 1980.


Additional Info.

The rifle closes easily on 9.3x74r snap caps manufactured by A-Zoom without issue. There are no marks on them to indicate they are being crushed.

I have one live 9.3x74r cartridge manufactured by Norma, date unknown; it looks older though. The rifle closes easily over that cartridge in either chamber.

Now to quote advice on another thread.

Thread:
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=402766&page=1



Using this info the rifle closes on a 30-30 case no problem; the rim skips the extractors easily. A 30-06 does not fit all the way into the chamber but will slip in without issue case turned around.

Thanks again for any and all help!
Matt

Upon closer inspection the reposing lions do indeed have Leue on the body, thanks!

Goodness...they are sort of dancing around both cartridges. Don't take my word as gospel and wait for others more familiar with both cartridges than me but I think it is the 9.3 X 74R. Case length and shoulder dia. seem to indicate that and the thickness of the chamber at the rear of the barrel seems to me to be fairly heavy for the 9.3 X 72R Sauer and more in line with what the X74R cartridge would be. The length of the neck seems to favor the X74R also. How do the neck length dimensions compare? All the info you provided was great. Thank you for taking the time.

Cartridges of the World cartridge illustrations
are life size. Put the chamber case near the picture.
9.3X74R is my bet.

L3n4rd, Come on over to the house and we will go to the range
and shoot up my factory ammo

Mike

Does the word "SAFE" on the Greener safety strike anyone as odd? Could this rifle have been intended for the British market? Could it possibly be chambered for the 400/360 2 3/4"?

I know that the two cartridges are similar enough that 400/360 cases can be formed from 9.3X74R brass.

This is a cartridge once loaded by DWM, so it muct have had some following in Germany. http://www.cartridgecollector.net/400360-nitro-express-2-%C2%BE

Good eye there xausa. Remember he(or his heirs & assigns) partnered with W.W. Greener for a time:


By the early 1890s he had joined forces with W.W. Greener


1907 Advert

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=302621

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

A little more info.
I measured the bore from the chambers cast the best I could after 2hr 6min.

Here are the 3 unmodified measurements:
.3555
.357
.350

The cerrosafe documentation says that measurements are +.0016 after 2 hours. I don't know if that mean's I need to add .0016 to the measurements or subtract it....



I'll get that neck length shortly, I can say it does look like it is longer than the snap cap though... I didn't even think to compare it to the loaded round duh!



I'll do a side by side comparison with cartridges of the world, I didn't realize they were 1:1. And that offer is a deal and a half! Next time I'm in Texas!



Interesting thoughts! I'll try to compare the numbers tonight or tomorrow.

A bit more info, I have noticed that the gun appears to cock on closing the action. I just had to test the triggers with the snap caps, I couldn't resist!

Additionally based on the sounds and a few snippets I have read here and there, I think the left barrel fires first from the front trigger and the right barrel second from the back trigger. Is this typical of German doubles/drillings? Would this be typical of an 'export' rifle?

A little more info.

This is a screen shot of presumably the original chamber cast done by the previous owner/his gun smith with the measurements; it was included in the documentation with the gun. It does closely match my findings and I would be willing to attribute the small variances between my measurements and his to my cheap calipers.



At any rate I will be looking over British cartridges to be sure.

According to the rifle gauge table found below, the bore measurements I have taken are squarely withing the 9.3 range. To me it is looking more and more like what Raimey mentioned; the guy who marked the gauge wasn't feeling very good Monday morning lol.

http://www.germanguns.com/tech.html

But the information gathering is yet to be concluded!

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=281525

Thread on 450/360 2 3/4"

M4 might have a Scherping DR in a similar chambering(450/360 Rigby(2 3/4"??))?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Neck length dims from three unmodified measurements are:

.557
.556
.558

Between 24 and 96 hours later the cerrosafe documentation says the measurements should be +.0025 (the +96 hours number). Again, I'm not sure if I add or subtract that number from the raw measurements.

This matches almost exactly the measurement found from the original documentation.



I have compared the numbers from SKB's post in the link you provided and from 400/360 2.75" WR from Cartridges of the World 4th Edition 1980 and they are not as close as the x74 numbers in my opinion. In both sets of 400/360 the numbers are lower that what I measured. Picture included for comparison.



Comparing to 9.3x75r Nimrod measurements found below, I'm not so sure that is it other than the overall length.

http://www.germanguns.com/upload/showthread.php?655-T-amp-S-arrived-Chamber-cast

So I'm kind of at a loss. What's everyone's best guess? I'm still leaning towards x74. Does anyone have better 9.3x75r Nimrod measurements?

Thanks again to everyone!

The 400/350 measures .437" at the shoulder, according to my Handloaders' Manual of Cartridge Conversions and COTW. I submit that that measurement and the difference in length effectively rules out the 400/360.

The choice is not between 9.3x72R norm and 9.3x74R; but between 9.3x72R Sauer and Sohn and 9.3x74R.From the dimensions of the chamber casts, you can see the reason for the confusion. I believe the next step would be to fire a 9.3x74R in the shortest chamber, and then check to see if a 9.3(.365-.366") bullet will easily enter the neck of the fired case. If it does,then use 9.3x74R ammo, with confidence. If not, trim cases to 72mm and load as usual, with 9.3x74R dies. If it is the S&S version, it may require "short" bullets.Bullets longer than the 286gr RN would not stabilize in my rifle.
Mike

Ok just to make sure my order of operations is correct...

1 - Buy box of 9.3x74r ammo.
2 - Pull bullet from one cartridge.
3 - Fire one cartridge in shortest chamber.
4 - Attempt to slide pulled bullet into neck of fired case. If it slides in easily, I have a 9.3x74r rifle and am finished. If it does not slide in easily the rifle is 9.3x72r Sauer.
5 - If it is 9.3x72r Sauer, pull bullets from all cases. Trim brass to 72mm (or spec), replace powder (to correct load levels), cap with pulled .366 diameter bullets and I am good to go.

I guess so,sometimes I forget other people may not have a stock of 9.3 bullets, cases,etc. If you don't know someone with a stock,that procedure will work.
Mike

No stock yet, this is my first foray into double guns and old school metric cartridges!

Thanks for the advice, hopefully I can pick some ammo up and Cabelas and give it a try this weekend.

L3n4rd,
Good luck, 9.3x74R is loaded by S&B,RWS,Norma,an now Hornady. At a gunshow this past weekend,I was shown a box of this caliber( also 8x57IRS)loaded by Winchester, for the European market.If you can't find any, maybe someone can order some from one of these sources.
Mike

I know a guy in Red Deer Ab that has about 5 boxes he will sell for 55.00 a box plus shipping. I'm not sure of the manufacter but can find out. Jack

Hello all! It's been a while but I'm finally back with more info!


I got myself a box of Hornady Dangerous Game Series 286gr SPs for $8.50! I just happened to stumble upon a deal on Brownells one morning; unfortunately they sold out before I could snag more than one box. Working with advice from earlier, I fired one cartridge in each chamber. The right chamber is the shorter of the two from the chamber cast.

The first shot is the one high to the left, the second is the one dead center; exactly where I aimed. I honestly can't remember which barrel I fired first and I'd put the high flier squarely on me; I had no idea what to expect recoil-wise so I flinched a little. Unfortunately I was limited to 50ft as I test fired at an indoor range. Everyone had to get a look at what I was shooting though


Now for the dirty details. The next pic shows the case heads after firing. The right cartridge is on the right, the left on the left. Both display very deep primer strikes with the right primer being pierced through. Both primers look as though they were flattened.


The next two pics are a more angled closeup of the case heads.
Left then right.



The next two pics I attempted to show what appears to be banding near the case head on both fired cartridges. I don't believe this is present on unfired ammo.



That's it for pics. As suggested by another user, a pulled bullet slips easily into the case mouth of the fired case, I believe indicating the case length is correct. I also did not observe any rings or any other abnormalities in the chamber/barrels after firing.

I have my theories about what is happening, but will defer to the experts first. I will probably slug the barrel(s) with a lead ball now as well just for good measure.

Now that looks like something I've seen before.My JP Sauer and Sohn sxs combo did that with the rifle barrel,but that was the one mis IDed as 9.3x74R.The primers are showing pressure signs,the cause and amount of which is not determined.From the age of the double,it may have,as mine did,"dog tooth" firing pins(part of the hammer).The "fix" for mine was a "gas dicte mutter bolzen"(?)(gas tight bushed firing pin).I have no experience with Hornady ammo, so this is only a guess.I think it might be loaded hotter than European ammo.Most people fire the front trigger first, which would be the right barrel/left bullet hole-if you reloaded after the "pulled"shot and not after the second shot.In this case,cross firing this much at 50 feet would indicate higher than normal velocity.If the bullets didn't cross, the distance between the holes would be about the distance between the barrels and would be ok.This is why I use two targets(side by side),so I can shoot the second barrel as soon as I can get back on target and still know where each bullet hit.Your need to do more shooting to find an appropiate load is going to be complicated by the pierced primers.The gunsmith that corrected my rifle was in Germany(and since has retired-his son has the shop).I believe New England Custom Guns can do this type work.I'm not saying, for sure,what caused it or that you have to call NECG, it is only a suggestion.It looks like more discussion is going to be needed.
Mike

If I understand you correctly, you mean that a "dog tooth" firing pin is one that is extra long or protrudes past the breech face after firing? Or that the firing pins are built into the hammer?

At any rate I was planning to pick up some S&B or PPU ammo anyways so I'll give it another test fire with that. I would suspect Hornady ammo is hotter, especially this being dangerous game ammo.

I'll give New England Custom Guns a call and see what they have to say.

L3n4rd,
What I mean is a firing pin that is part of the hammer.They are usually larger than modern ones,and since they swing in an arc,the hole in the breech face has to be larger also.They do extend past the face in firing, but rebound with the hammer.This leaves the primer unsupported somewhat,and may be the cause of the hole in the primer.I'm pretty sure S&B ammo will show less pressure than Hornady.Of course I'm guessing with all this, since I don't have the rifle "in hand".
Mike

Ah ha. That makes a lot of sense and mirrors almost exactly what Mark from New England Custom Gun told me could be going on.

Can you describe the repair/bushing that was done/added to your gun? I have an idea of what it might look like in my mind.

I also did a little more googling last night and found reference to a 9x74 R Förster cartridge. It seems like that could be one of the many 9.3x72s our there but I was unable to find a picture of it. Have you heard of it?

I still have to slug the bore.

If it comes down to it, are there any recommendations for custom die makers?

Ladies & Gentlemen!
Don't forget you have a historic doublegun. Nitropowders in the days of the youth of this gun have not been the same as today! So do not try to use highspeedloads from the present.
Der Ami: 118/35 marked under crown and U is describing the loads used for the proof at the Beschussamt! At this time, the first test and the 2nd test werde done with different powder loads and the bullet weight was the same. But it's not the load for using the gun in normal condition.
I always smile when i read this table down at the site: http://www.germanguns.com/tech.html
If you use the RWS .364 TMFK for propper hand loads try to get some of the S&B TMFK bullets. The copper mantle from the S&B is not as hard as the RWS bullet! ;-)And all the old expressguns will thank you! :-)

Sorry for my broken english, i need a lot of practice!
Martin

Herkulesdrilling,
The 118/35 is the bore diameter(not groove diameter nor bullet diameter)expressed in guage measurement(like shotguns).In my experience, this marking most ofter is found on rifles with about .358-.359"groove diameter.The "express" type bullet as used in 9,3x72R Norm.is made to be safe in these smaller barrels.
L3
To install the bushed firing pin, the one on the hammer will be cut off,a hole will be drilled/tapped into the breechface, and a bushing will be screwed in with the new firing pin trapped between it and the action.It's a little more involved, but this is a simple explanation.BTW what is the groove diameter of the barrels? 118/35 would not be expected on a 9.3x74R(unless rechambered from 9.3x72R or 9x58 1/2R,etc).
Mike

Ok that is about how I figured it, thanks for the description. I figured either a bushing inside on the hammers or the firing pin holes or on the breech face to support the cartridge/primers and prevent too great movement during firing.

The groove diameters I measured from the chamber casts were
.362 - left
.3625 - right

I want to confirm by slugging with a lead ball or cerrosafe further down the barrel.

I am also still working on getting some S&B ammo.

L3n4rd,
If the .362 groove diameters hold up, I am becoming more convinced that the rifle may have been rechambered from an older 9.3 cartridge.While,in my view,this shouldn't be done, it was done pretty often.The barrels on a double rifle are usually thick enough that it is not as bothersom as it would be in a drilling with a typically thin barrel.Since you said a pulled bullet enters a fired case,that is not a concern.You may have trouble getting it to shoot both barrels to the same(or close)point of impact.I noted the 2 shots you posted the photo of were fired from only 50 feet.Even though they were close together,it may be a different story at 100 yards.Bullet stability may also be a concern,since older 9.3 cartridges often used shorter bullets than the 9.3x74R,therefore may have slower twist.Whether these really are problems can only be determined by shooting it.If they are problems, they are not insurmountable.When you get the S&B ammo, it is important to hold the rifle as you would while hunting,fire both barrels very quickly,let them cool to ambient temp.between pairs of shots, and be able to id which shot came from which barrel(I use 2 targets).On the other hand, everything may work great. This is not to scare you, it is to let you know that if you need to,you can likely make it work out.
Mike

I'll try this time, I was just too darn excited to pay complete attention to all the little details! Good to know to fire both barrels as soon as possible one after the other; I definitely paused a bit between both shots on the first one.

IMO the barrels are quite thick and the chamber walls are as well, so for whatever that is worth, I'm not super concerned in that area.

I am also planning on trying to measure the twist rate of the rifling; was twist designed/designated in X twists per foot at the time this gun was manufactured?

I was also considering if the bore is too slim for an actual .366 diameter bullet, pulling x74 bullets then resizing via a push through sizer and reseating may alleviate any continuing pressure issues while also providing an easy and readily accessible way to load 'custom' ammo with out too much fuss or extra expense. Of course accuracy may be insurmountably effect by lengthening the bullet.

Also for a frame of reference, do you have any idea where the charge specified on the chambers stacks up in regards to hot loaded, middle of the road, or light loads?
3,5 g G.B.P./St.m.G.

Thanks for the info Martin, and the English was good! I'll also start looking for some RWS ammo now as another testing cartridge.

118,35 is the plug gauge diameter that would pass the whole length but there was a load associated with it in the early proof tables:



Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

L3n4rd,
The load on the barrel is the proof load and can't be compared to any duty loads.Twist in German rifles is now shown as 1 twist in x mm (ie 1 in 250mm).You can resize the .366" bullets to .362" if you want, but the reason I suggested trying the bullet in a fired case was to see if it would cause a great increase in pressures.I use .321" bullets in some rifles with .318" barrels, because they fit into a fired case.In another case,I size .321" to .318", because the .321" bullet won't fit into the fired case.This is short, because I'm having computer problems and this is the third try.
Mike

9,3X74,7R Förster cartridge dims courtesy of Peter in Sweden.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Ok I think I understand, I thought that slipping a .366 bullet into the case neck was to confirm brass OAL.

If I understand you correctly the method to this is, since the .366 bullet slips into a fired case means the the beginning of the rifling is wide enough to accept a bullet of .366 diameter. If it was too narrow and thus a different caliber/groove diameter, the case mouth would not be unable to expand all the way as there is not enough space in the chamber for it to expand and thus the case mouth would remain narrower than the bullet diameter after firing.

Fantastic!

Do you know what the numbers in the top left corner of the black background drawings refer to? I was thinking bullet weight in grains?

L3n4rd,
Actually, it was to confirm both.If the bullet wouldn't fit into the case, then you would have to investigate the cause.If the case was too long,and jammed into the lede/rifling,it would have a similar effect as if the bullet were too large.BTW, I don't think the numbers at the top left of the drawings are the weights, note the longest bullets have the smallest numbers.Note the numbers at the base of the cartridges.The 474 and 474A are, I believe,DWM case/cartridge numbers.Note also the drawings are of cartridges, the chambercast dimensions will have to be different,otherwise the cartridges wouldn't chamber.In the old days, the difference in some dimensions would be more significant than they are now.
Mike

In the above drawings,the one with DWM#474 is 9x74Forester(a rare caliber from 1900,not listed in 1904 catalog-per Dixon),it shows a bullet dia.of 9.1mm(.358")Dixon shows it as 9.02mm(.355").The DWM#474A is 9.3x74R,it shows a bullet dia.of 9.35mm(.368"), Dixon shows it as 9.27mm(.365").The drawings seem to be design drawings and the "Dixon"figures are from cartridge collectors measurements.All this illustrates the variation in bullet diameters.The 118,35 mark would support a bullet dia of .358", or 9x74R Forester.However,groove diameter of .362" is closer to 108.49 ga.This supports my opinion that it doesn't make much difference what you call a cartridge, if you can find or make bullets and cases that fit.Also the rifle will tell you what it wants,if you listen to it.
Mike

I'll defer to others more experienced. That said I have seen almost the exact same situation with one of my double rifles. I own a circa 1911 JP Sauer double rifle, chambered in 9.3x74r. I don't have the primer problem that you do, but the case dimensions are very similar, including the banding around the case head.

I believe the rifle was originally chambered to 9.3x72 sauer and then reamed out (in Germany) to 9.3x74R. When you fire 9.3x74r ammunition you are effectively fire forming the case and the base of the case expands to fit the original 9.3x72 dimensions (the base of the 72 sauer case is larger than the 74R case). In my rifle, the bullets from all factory ammo cross (Hornady, S&B, norma, RWS, etc). I believe the original 9.3x72 load was probably a 194 or 232 grain bullet with a lower velocity. If I take fired cases from my rifle, they won't fit a standard 9.3x74r chamber as the base of the case is too fat.

My suggestion would be to use a lighter bullet at a lower velocity, then work back to the 286 grain bullets. It is taken me a fair amount of time and money to understand all this, but that is part of the fun. Hope this helps.

HB01,
You are correct that the 9.3x72R S&S used a lighter bullet, which I believe weighed about 186 gr.My Sauer sxs combination gun wouldn't stabilize bullets longer than the 286 gr RN bullet.When I started shortening the 74mm cases to 72mm,I found that old production Speer 250 grain bullets are shorter than the 286 gr,even though they are spitzer bullets. They shoot fine in my rifle.I have some of the new production bullets (270gr), but have not tried or measured them.Since I was only dealing with one barrel,my challenge was not nearly as great as yours.
Mike

Sorry for the absence, my motorcycle has taken priority trying to get it ready for a camping trip... ahh the vagaries of carburetion! I see some similarity between these projects... To such an end, I have no new info about the rifle. I haven't had a chance to slug the bores and measure the twist rates. I did however find some S&B 9.3x74r at an attractive price but I'm still waiting for it to arrive.

Excellent info Der Ami and HB01.

I'm quite happy to accept if the bullet fits and the case fits and it doesn't explode while shooting it, you have a winning combo lol.

Like HB01 said, I love the mystery of trying to figure out what happened to this rifle over it's life. Floating theories, taking measurements, looking at the possibilities. It's almost as much fun as shooting it! It has also been an excellent excuse to buy some more cartridge books!

To add a little more intrigue, I recently discovered a 9.3/.375, that appears to be a .375 H&H Flanged necked down to take 9.3 bullets. Does any one have any case measurements just for fun?

Also, do you think x72 brass with the larger base would fire form properly to the x74ish chambers I have?

L3n4rd,
A 9.3 based on the .375 H&H Flanged would have a head diameter of around .502" and case lenhth of around 2.94". The length is not much different,but the head diameter is considerably larger than the 9.3x74R case.As far as x72R S&S vs x74R cases are concerned, I would only consider the x74R cases.They are much more common(therefore cheaper)than the x72R S&S case and the casehead is not enough smaller to make any practical difference in fireforming.
Mike

L3n'
What a sweet looking rifle,its a beauty....great price as well
Im glad for you it was still there in the morning.
Boy it sure looks very Greener-ish,doesn't it?,& not just the side safety.
Surely ,if listed at an upscale dealer, that rifle would be priced many thousands higher?..or does the caliber,or caliber confusion hurt it?
Sweet, I sure would have bought it
Franc