Gentlemen, I am new to this site. I was told on another hunting site that you folks could possibly help me identify this beautifully crafted piece.
It is a drilling that is marked 16/1 on the shotgun barrels and 10.7 mm on the rifle barrel.
The wood is well worm but the metal is in perfect shape.
Is the 10.7 a black powder load? Can brass be bought of formed for this piece.
I was told it has never been fired since it was sent home.
On the rib it is marked Albert Latz Euskirchen. On the tang below the second lever it is inlaid sicher which I was told is German for safety. Krupp is marked on the barrels under the forearm.
On the cover for extra rifle rounds on the underside of the stock it is marked Gustav (or Gustay) Windeck.
Here are a few photos
It is not for sale but I would be interested in the value. It was brought back from Germany by a good friend who fought in WWII.
Thank's for looking.
I really fancy that selector on the top tang. It looks to be post 1912 & pre-1923. It is some unique Blitz action with a pretty big bore. Is the word "Nitro" on either side of the scattergun tubes? You are probably going to have to make a chamber cast or make a best guess at cartridge length. Ford can tell you what parent case from which to form the brass.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Can you snap an image of the Powder type, military flake?, near the 10.7mm stamp? There might be some odd 1g111 weight stamp?
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Congratulatio! You own a gun of the inventor of the dogcake, Albert Latz from Euskirchen, who lived from von 1855 - 1923. Raimey was right with his time estimate.
Gunwolf
Gunwolf:
Do you mean biscuit?
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Yes, Raimey, Biscuit for dogs!I'm living 10 kilometers from Euskirchen.
Gunwolf
That's a left handed drilling....unless you somehow got the pictures turned around or it has a cheek rest on both sides. I have seen that done as after market.
I don't have the best references for the older cartridges and there are few 10.7's listed in what I have. A chamber cast, as Raimey suggested, would be best and remove all doubt. Casting the chamber is always best anyway. Just because a firearm was stamped as some particular cartridge when it was made doesn't mean it still is.....ask me how I know that.
In german we call it "Hundekuchen".
So the gun has a nice provenience. Big Redneck, I think your friend fought in the Ardennen Offensive in the last days of WW II....
Regards, Gunwolf
Wolfgang:
Was Albert Latz of Euskirchen a Southpaw(left handed)? My paternal Grandfather was there at the event.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Raimey, I don't know.
Wikipedia:
http://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_LatzRegards,
Wolfgang
After looking closer I found a marking 1g111 below was 36gGBP it was underlined and below the line is st m G
I used small case letters & caps as they were marked on the rifle barrel.
I also found nitro on the shotgun barrels.
On one of the shotgun barrels I found FLUSSSTAHL - KRUPP The first word may be misspelled as the markings are very light.
I am a novice at IDing markings.
Hello Big Redneck
Welcome on your first postings
Great gun,
Yes ammo can be made for your drilling,
First what is necessary is a chamber casting and bore
measurement.
Have fun here
http://www.shotguns.se/html/germany_1890-1945.htmlCerrosafe should be use for the chamber casting
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2d5DA4_OcuEhttp://www.midwayusa.com/product/462291/cerrosafe-chamber-casting-alloy-1-2-lbAgain, Welcome
Mike
p.s. if you have a dial indicator, could you give us the approximate internal barrel diameter?
http://www.rstshells.com/store/m/3-16-Gauge.aspx
The 3,6GPB/StmG notes 3,6 grams of Gewehr Blättchenpulver(military flake powder) over steel metal jacketed bullet and was a stamp used from July 23rd, 1893 till the rules change in 1912 so the construction of the sporting weapon must have commenced say around 1911 & saw completion between 1912 & WWI.
Would like to see an image of the 1g1111 stamp.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Raimey, I think it's simply the serial Nummer 19111, see also on the forearm below left on the picture.....
What do you think?
Cheers,
Wolfgang
Wolfgang:
I believe you to be most correct, good eye. I'm thinking that the original platform to be that of F.W. Keßler's Selbstspannerdrilling System Tip-Top & then possibly some mechanic altered it to the client's whims.
I've looked & looked but where is the safety?
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
I assume the term Sicher is in gold below the 2nd lever & above ocular & if so, then where is the selector?
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Gentlemen, the selector that you have boxed controls the safety, when you move it to the left it raises the rear sight that is about 6 to 8 inches forward of the breech. there is a very small rod under the rib that is pushed by a pin. Who ever did this was a master craftsman for sure. It also engages the rear trigger to fire the rifle barrel. When you swing it to the right you can fire the shot gun barrels.
It also has a tang sight that can be raised, the small piece of the sight that can be elevated after the tang sight is raised is to only part missing.
Sorry I didn't mention the sights earlier.
The mark 1g111 is on the forearm and other places on the piece. the powder markings are right near this on the rifle barrel.
I will take some more pic today and also get some measurements.
When you look into the barrels from the breech end you can see there is no shoulder for the rifle but there could possibly be a taper that you cannot notice. I will try and get a depth measurement on both the rifle and shot gun barrels.
My friend did not land on D-Day but did fight till the end of the war. I hunted with him for many many years and he very very seldom talked about those times, then it was to talk about this piece or the wine he "liberated". His sister told me he was wounded more than once but he never ever talked about the fighting.
He passed several years ago and was a great guy to hunt with for not only me but my sons and daughter.
Forgot to say that the word sicher is inlaid right where the box you overlaid crosses the tang near the small selector and toward butt of the stock.
Ah hah. So a dual selector. So there's a rod in the doll's head well that pushes a rod in the lower part of the Greener crossbolt extension. I'd like to see the rod you mention in the frame.
Note too that that the sideclips/wings are side tube extensions not frame extensions.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
The piece is very tight, in fact when you remove the barrels it takes a little patience to put it back together. There is no wiggle anywhere.
This is like Christmas for me, as a little more wrapping (info) unfolds my eyes brighten more.
You get some dimensions from a rifle chamber casting and one of us can tell you how to load for it!
Gentlemen, I took some measurements with my dial calipers so they are an estimate at best.
All from the rifle barrel, at the breech .70" , this would include the case, at the muzzle .30". Depth from the face of the breech to the rifling's 2.5 inches. Possible total length of the round or just the case? Length measurement was to a very small ridge where the rifling's started. Rifling's are very shallow, 6 grooves.
The rifle barrel has a W stamped on the underside the same as the shotgun barrels, could this mean the rifle barrel is also choked to some extent?
The shot gun barrels, right barrel is slightly more open at the muzzle than the left.
I am working on pic's
Here are some new pic's
The pin in the center of the slot that raises the rear sight
The area, looks like a keyhole, where the above pin engages the rod to raise the front sight.
Sight lowered and raised, npte the position of the selector.
Showing the ejectors raised
Note the barrel thickness at the muzzle compared to the thickness at the breech in the above pic.
Another interesting fact, note the pins on either side of the top lever that indicate if a barrel is cocked, the one pin by itself on the left is for the rifle barrel and the 2 on the right indicate the shotgun barrels.
Big Redneck,
The proofmark for a choked rifle barrel was a "S" superimposed over the "W", under a crown. The 10.7 is not the cartridge the drilling is chambered for. Instead, it is the bore diameter(not groove or bullet diameter)of the barrel as measured by the proofhouse with "gauge rods"or pins.It means a 10.7mm rod would enter the barrel,but a 10.8 rod wouldn't.To determine the cartridge,it is intended for, better measurements will be required. The diameter of the head,length of case,at a minimum would be required.This is assuming your statement that it is a straight case is correct(it likely is).Your rough measurement of 2.5", for the length could fit a couple case lengths, depending on where the case stops and the leade starts and ends. It would also be nice to know the rim diameter and thickness(thickness can be indirectly measured by measuring the depth of the rim recess),as well as the groove diameter of the barrel.Since measuring inside diameters with a dial caliper can be from a couple to several thousanths "off", it is better to make a chamber cast and the measurements can be made from the outside.With these measurements, I'm sure we can find or make cases and bullets that will work.It is also likely we can ID the name of the cartridge, but that is not necessary to be able to shoot it. Just my guess is it is likely something on the order of 11x55-65R, but I could be wrong as I often am.BTW,even though you asked about a black powder load the steel jacketed bullet and GBP show it was a smokeless powder cartridge.
Mike
0.7" seems a bit wide for a base and it would seem that the cartridge length is between 60mm & 65mm so maybe some Gründig variant? Seems a chamber cast is in order. The W stamp on the solid projectile tube is not a proofhouse stamp but a mechanic's stamp for compensation & liability for a mechanic like Wolf, etc. I guess the possibility exists for a M???
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
I will do a chamber cast for sure, I am sure my measurements are an estimate at best.
I will have a machinist do the measurements of the cast,I'm an old electrician and don't trust my measurements with the equipment that I own.
Any idea's on the builder, one craftsman or a possibly a guild? The more I dig into this piece and the more I learn, the more it shows the outstanding skills of those who built this beautiful piece.
Many many thank's to all the Gentlemen who have helped me in the quest to learn all I can about this piece.
I have been afraid to clean this firearm as I didn't want to do any damage (I have heard some horror stories), any suggestions on what solvents I could use?
Difficult to say on the exact maker without some additional marks somewhere? Any around the forend hanger? The selector just may point to a mechanic but it passed thru the Suhl proof facility. Also the tube extensions might narrow the field.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
The way the top of the frame is filed might also point toward a pool of makers but for now I'd guess:
E. Schmidt & Habermann
F.W. Keßler
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Any text here?
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
What I am hoping that you find after your chamber cast is this !!
http://www.buffaloarms.com/43_Mauser_Black_Powder_Ammunition%20_it-158048.aspx?CAT=4443Mike
p.s. a question, does the rifle barrel have rifling? or is it smooth bore?
Found the letters DRGM and some numbers that cannot be read in the area that the arrow is pointing. There are a series of numbers right after the letters so small and so close to the rib that they cannot be read. It is so close to the rigid piece that it probably was stamped before that piece was installed.
Also right next to the hanger for the forearm are 2 letters the capital U is facing left and below that the letter D is facing the opposite direction and is staggered down one space.
Also there are 1 set of numbers, 7 then a space then 2 badly blurred numbers. there are very hard to read.
Not sure if that ammo will work as this seems to have a straight case, I'll know more after it is cast.
It there rifling in the rifle barrel?
Yes there are rifling's, very shallow, 6 riflings.
I've seen a DRGM Nr. on the extractor leg prior. I'll have to dig a bit. Can you determine how many numbers, say 5 or 6?
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Exact same location, looks like 6 numbers. Letters are very clear but the numbers are smaller and tight to the rib and not stamped as deep or clear. If they were stamped after installation they would have to be a very very narrow set of stamps.
Also the 3 numbers below the drgm in your photo are in the exact same location as the 3 numbers I mentioned above on my drilling.
Interesting, possible same builder?
Hum, it is possible that T&S could be the culprit but I would hope to see one of their trademarks. I guess we should add them to the very narrow pool of mechanics. How 'bout a close-up image of your lugs?
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Note this from the other thread:
"G.C.Dornheim's D.R.G.M. 223532 for the 8.15X40R dates to 1904 while Vierordt's DRGM 274380 for the 8x62R should date to say 1906 as would the Kersten Modell I under D.R.G.M. 252511. So Gebrauchsmuster 242486 would date to circa 1905(just some ground truth and not related other than a date, Ernst Steigleder sought protection under DRGM Nr. 232449 on July 20th 1904 for a breech-block mechanism). So a date range for this drilling is 1905 - 1908."
Maybe the owner that found protection ponied up the additional 60 marks for an additional 3 years of protection putting the period to 1910 or 1911 which would pair well with the applied marks.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Raimey, here are some pics of the lugs and also the DU marks near the forearm hanger
notice how the letters are opposite ?
I am guessing 24X4XX I used the X for numbers I could not read, also the 3 numbers I read as 7 XX.
Notice the M with the crown above it?
Again I am a novice at this.
Yep, same Crown over M adjacent. I have wondered what that stamp might have been. Excellent effort. Still with the 24x4xxx your manufacture date is going to be circa 1911/1912. Looks like same 726 number also. Not sure on the U but the D notes that components were sourced from a D mechanic.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
I'm going to say the Nr. is 246486 being DRGM 246486 or Gebrauchsmuster Nr. 246486.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
I have read where the U stands for inspection, I wonder if that would apply for the D U area.
There are U marks with a crown adjacent on other parts as were show in previous pic's.
1911/1912 she's a little over 100 years old, interesting.
I am going to take a small brush and very lightly brush the drgm area to see if I get a better pic of those numbers, I am worried about doing damage so it will be very lightly for sure.
Indeed a Crown over U represents inspection after a proof effort but this U, if that is what it is, is not a proofhouse touchmark but rather a component maker's mark like say Ulrich and there is another or two family of mechanics whose last name begin with a U.
Apply chalk or soap after your touch-up effort.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Forgot to note that the D near the forend hanger more than represents sourcing of components & it may represent effort also. A guess would be Heinrich Diem of Benshausen bei Suhl. Denecke & Co. as well as Gebrüder Decker but both were in Zella-Mehlis and I doubt cross-sourcing to Z-M, but it is possible. D is a common stamp in that position & on the forward part of the right flat on Suhl sourced sporting weapons. I do not believe I've ever seen the stamp of a D on a Sauer manufactured sporting weapon.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
In January 1908 the following protection period for the following DRGMs was extended:
241475
242003
243380
252826
In July 1908 Carl Stiegele of München paid the extra 60 marks and extended the protection
period for DRGM 247832
So the DRGM stamped on the tubeset had to be applied for in 1905.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Big Redneck,
WD40 and 0000steel wool is mild enough that you won't hurt it.Electronic calipers are cheap enough now(other than top of the line)that everyone should have 3(1 for the shop,1 for the loading room,and 1 for the den).They are easier than dial calipers,certainly easier than vernier calipers.Also, I use mine to convert in/mm and mm/in.Then you wouldn't need a machinist to measure for you,just remember to "zero" the scale.
Mike
Here in Northwestern Pennsylvania we have about a foot of snow on the ground. It warmed up and rained last night and it was 34 degrees at 7:30 A.M. this morning, it is now 1 P.M. and the temp is 18 degrees. Solid ice everywhere.
I will get a better set of calipers and hope to find material to do the casting at the local gun shop when I get out and about.
I will try the 0000 and WD40 this afternoon.
I Did some clean up and took some more photos
I think the number is 2404XX
found this mark on the shotgun barrels
http://www.lugerforum.com/lugermarkings/proof-1.htmlCheck out the above, It shows an M with a crown above.
The Crown over M is a maker's mark, either Belgian or German, and not a proofmark of sorts.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
This is interesting, Big Redneck's link above seems to show a crown M as a military mark, not commercial at all.I initially wondered if the M was a W mistakenly applied upside down.
Big Redneck, if your gunshop doesn't have cerrosafe, you can likely find it at Brownell's.
Mike
I made my share of chamber casts without cerrosafe or any such fancy stuff - just the nearest old candle. Accurate enough for this purpose, at least in my experience.
With kind regards,
Jani
Candle wax is not nearly as accurate as cerrosafe, but Jani is correct in that the difference between probable cartridges is enough that wax will show it. Just understand you have to be a little more careful in measuring it, and it may not be as useful as a reference,if it gets warm and sags.It's cheaper though, and avaliable.
Mike
To be honest, the only need for Cerrosafe is if you are shipping it to have a set of dies cast. Wax is much easier.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Gentlemen, just got a digital caliper. The diameter of the rim is 13.3 mm or .525 inches and the thickness, breech toward the muzzle, is 2mm. The diameter of the brass looks to be around 11.8mm, I will be able to get a better reading after I get the cast made.
Looks like is a little larger than a .45 Colt, tomorrow I will check a Colt round, I know it isn't the right cal., just to see how close it fits. My book shows a Colt round , the rim, at .512 inches.
I take it that you plug the barrel then pour in the melted wax, let it cool then push it out to get a measurement? This is all new to me, I'll have to check out the you tube video.
Yes, lube the tube a bit & let it cool and tamp it out with something.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Big, a chamber cast is really easy to do and especially on a break action firearm where you can remove the barrels.
For the last 25-30 years I've always used Cerrosafe but prior to that had used sulphur and it worked very well except that the cast is quite brittle. Easy to handle but bump or drop it and it's in pieces. Cheap drug store sulphur works fine and as with a crayon, wax or Cerrosafe can be repeatedly used....anyway...
Pull the barrels off the receiver. I use a piece of newspaper but anything would work. Shove it in the chamber and deep enough to get a couple inches of rifling, tamping the newspaper it so it is sort of solid. Melt a small amount of whatever it is you're going to use, obviously enough to fill the chamber. I use a little rectangular tin that the General Food International coffees used to come in, it's easy to bend a spout in one corner and control your pour. Pour it into the chamber until full enough that you can get a good casting of the rim depth, let cool and gently tap it out from the muzzle with a cleaning rod. Voila'! There's your cartridge.
Marc's contribution to the quest.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
With the coarse measurements 64mm length, 13.3mm rim & 11.8mm base points toward 10,75X65R Collath.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Raimey,
Note the 10.75x57 is a rimless cartridge,so it's not the one. If we can get a bullet dia.it would be a lot better.Case length is also not sure yet, we need to separate case length from chamber length(ie not include leade).
Mike
G65/10,75 No. 2/25 - Rand
Wolfgang's addendum.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Someone just had to come up with a cartridge I've never heard of. Do you have any idea what that's going to do to my bank account....yet again?
I'm afraid you may have to resort to accumulating images as there are many chamberings.
Additionally Wolfgang finds there were 3 Drillingpatronen:
11X52
11X60
11X65
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Gentlemen
Between the weather, it was 10 below here the A.M., to doing "honey do's, I have not made the casting yet. Hope to do it this weekend.
Thank's again for all the info.
There are several possibles that can be discounted, because of the smokeless/jacketed bullet proof. We are looking for something other than the popular LK series.The rifle will tell us, it will speak through a chambercast/slugged bore.
Mike
Gentlemen, I made the casting today using old candles.
Total length of the chamber for the case is 65mm.
Diameter just below the rim is 12mm and at the open end of the case it is 11.8mm, slight but noticeable taper.
from the end of the case to the beginning of the rifling's is 6.5mm.
Bore is 11mm, grooves are 1mm deep, from groove to groove measures 10.8mm.
The rifle has spoken.
OK, can you give thousands of inch measurements?
Like maybe chamber length is 2.60
or case head diameter is .480
or case mouth is .472
Are these even close??
Thanks
Mike
closest I get is the 10.75x65R Collath
Bullet diameter .424
Neck diameter .451
Base diameter .487
Rim diameter .542
Case length 2.56
Cartridge length 3.02
205 grain soft point bullet
Mild taper on case
A 405 Winchester case is quite close
What was the rim diameter, 13.8mm? Sounds like a 10.75 X 65R Gründig??
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Considering the cartridge has to be smaller than the chamber, I also think it is 11.2x65R Collath,which seems to be interchangable with 11.15x65 LK express, except it was loaded with a jacketed bullet.It was also known as 11mm Teschner, or 11x65R.The base of the Grundig series is too large ,at 12.48mm, to be the one.
Mike
Rim is 13.8mm
Skeetx, length is 2.55
Rim is right on, taper is slightly less
NorthWestern Pennsylvania, just south of where I-80 crosses the Allegheny river.
Great, you should have no problems getting components to construct your rifle ammo.
Will you be using RST ammo for the shotgun barrels??
http://www.rstshells.com/store/m/3-16-Gauge.aspxMike
Thanks to all who helping in this quest.
Just for grin's I tried a 45 long colt into the chamber, bullet would enter the chamber but the case would not.
Getting dies and the shorter 16 ga ammo is on my bucket list.
Thanks again to all.
Dear sir,
I also have old German drilling.
The rifle barrell also marked as 10.7 mm.
Its diameters (maximal) iz 11.0 mm.
It also have a mark "M uder the crown" in the same plase.
[img:left]
[/img]
Here it is.
The numbers mean DRGM 1798
