Post images of the marks as well as the tube steel type and that may garner you additional info.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
This is a generic East German SXS built in March, 1975. (375 on the barrel flat.) This gun has 70mm (2-3/4") chambers and I'll bet full chokes. What I mean by generic is that Merkels, JP Sauers and Simsons were all made at the same plant by the same workers. It is a common joke among importers of these guns that Merkels went out the front door, Sauers out the side door and Simsons out the back door of the plant. The action is what I refer to as the Merkel style reinforced frame with scalloped back. All brands were made on the same frame. The only differences among the three brands were stock and checkering style and the location of the sling swivels on the barrels. The actions were marked slightly different and the barrels were marked for brand. I have one of these with a left hand cheekpiece.
Thank you very much for the information. However, what I don't quite understand is your description of the relationship of the Merkel to the J.P. Sauer shotguns made after the war. My JP Sauer model VIII that this Merkel bears some general family resemblance to, is a much higher grade gun, with great wood, careful fitting, and extensive high quality engraving (according to my books, it is factory engraving pattern style 06 ). In general, every part of the gun is made to much higher specs than is the Merkel. So it can't be just a matter of it being the same gun with a different name stamped on it. My Sauer was made in 1953 in northern West Germany at Eckernförde (and is marked as such), where I understand JP Sauer set up shop after the war...Was there also a JP Sauer branded shotgun being sold out of the pre-war plant at Suhl in East Germany after WWII? This is what you seem to be saying. Can you clear this up for me?
I know exactly what my Sauer sells for in my part of the world but I have no idea about the Merkel. Given that you can't actually handle the gun, in very general terms what do you think these Merkels are worth?
A couple of pictures of my Sauer Model VIII
Was there ...a JP Sauer branded shotgun being sold out of the pre-war plant at Suhl in East Germany after WWII?
Robinpeck
Yes,they operated under the Russians for a while,right after the war as JP SAUER.When they went to West Germany in the 50s,it was really just the "name".The plant,parts,etc.stayed in Suhl.The plant kept making guns,but under other names.I think the ones marked Fortuna were made there.The West German SAUERs were a different model altogether and not like the older SAUERs.The new SAUERs were still fine guns on their own.
Mike
Re: "The West German SAUERs were a different model altogether and not like the older SAUERs"
Thanks, this helps ....but muddies the water at the same time. If the West German Sauer is "a different model altogether" then why is it nearly identical to the East German Merkel? The West German Sauer Model VIII that I have is a virtual twin of the East German Merkel, except of course, that it is much better made, better wood, much better fit and finish overall...but the basic architecture of the gun is identical. Something is missing in this history as outlined in the postings above..I guess I'll need to actually see an East German Sauer (or Fortuna?) to notice the differences....also...are these Merkels worth anything and is there a model number for this gun?
robinpeck,
That they are different models altogether is what SAUER,Eckernfoerde told me when I wrote them in early 70s asking them to replace the forearm on a prewar combination gun and make a new set of barrels.That the Fortuna was made in the Sauer factory is a rumor in the ROD and Gun Club.The manager was usually right,but I can't prove it.You can't go only by looks,take one of each apart and check/measure all the parts.
Mike
As I recall the story, the Sauer family slipped out of East Germany when it became apparent to them the best they, as factory owners and therefore class enemies, could hope for under the DDR regime would be to keep their hides. When they left for the West, the drawings and technical data remained behind.
So, as goes the story I've heard, they got an exemplar of the Sauer production and went to work measuring off it and reconstructing the design and process from memory, then undertaking to put this gun into production. So, the West German Sauer design is close, but not exactly the same, as the East German. Some of the parts should fit - last year I had to replace a broken hammer spring in my 1979 Simson, and Merkel USA was able to supply one that needed minor fitting at most by my gunsmith to fit and work. To compete in the Western market - against the entire Free World, so to speak - the Western guns' fit, finish and workmanship had to be superior to the East's. In the East, once you hit your quota you were good - insisting on excellence and nice quality beyond meeting quota had sort of a capitalist aroma about them and didn't go far. We didn't see too many East guns because they were subject to a punitive tariff.
As I further recall it, the deal that really made the new Western Sauer company viable was Mr. Weatherby getting them to make his then-new rifles for the American market.
And, yes, these Merkels are worth something. Not as much as a post-reunification Merkel, but they are good solid guns. Governed by communists or not, the workers in Suhl were still Germans.
Thanks for the information. I have now obtained a book, J.P. Sauer & son, by Arfmann and Kallmeyr (2004), that has some of this same information. The book is divided into the Suhl era and the Eckernforde era.It mentions (p. 87-88) that the East German firm of VEB Ernst Thalmann advertised guns "Made by J.P. Sauer & son" in 1960, including a model 8 side by side shotgun (some of the advertising is illustrated), but that there was no longer any relationship to the actual Sauer family (they having escaped to West Germany). So I guess I have found the answer to my own question.
It does seem that there actually were two different "Sauer" Model 8 (VIII) shotguns produced after the war. One made by workers in Suhl (GDR) and one made by (approx. 70) escaped Sauer workers supplemented by local workers at the firm managed by the actual Sauer family in Eckernforde (northern West Germany). I assume the West German production was superior in quality if the GDR Merkel that I have is any indication of the quality of GDR Sauer production. It would be good to compare my West German Sauer Model VIII to an actual East German Sauer Model 8, rather than just to the Merkel (although I understand from your postings that the GDR Sauer Model 8 would be essentially the same gun as the GDR Merkel).
It does seem a shame that people might confuse the very high quality shotgun that I have in the Sauer Model VIII with its East German namesake...I mean, the Merkel is nice, but it can't compare to the West German version in the Sauer Model VIII.
By the way, the book claims that Suhl was originally occupied by American troops on April 3rd, 1945. The 18 Sauer buildings were burned down on April 18th, including the firm's archive, during the American occupation. The Soviet units didn't take over the occupation until July. They then immediately ordered Sauer to begin production of hunting rifles for higher ranking Soviet officers. The book claims 9,500 "hunting weapons" were produced at Suhl in 1946.
The Russian NKVD (secret police) arrested the remaining Sauer family member, Hans Sauer, in 1947 and he disappeared. They then expropriated J.P. Sauer and removed it from the register of companies, founded VEB Fortuna and then integrated this firm into Thalmann in 1951.
J.P. Sauer & son, by Arfmann and Kallmeyr (2004), is a good book with precise documentation.
Here in Canada, I think the Merkel shotguns were imported more freely from the GDR during the Cold War than they were in the United States and hence you see the GDR Merkel shotguns more often.
And after all that...I still haven't got a clue what the Merkel might be worth.
I've seen them offered between $400 and $1500, depending on condition.
Yes, value is all about condition, isn't it. Condition, condition, condition. Of course, people also have a variety of opinions on condition. I'd call this Merkel shotgun NRA "Very Good", but someone else might grade it up or down slightly. In the end I guess its whatever someone will pay.
By the way, Dave in Maine, I'm just across the line from you in New Brunswick (I'm from Western Canada (Alberta/B.C.) but am working down here in the Maritimes right now.) Where can I get information about upcoming Maine gunshows? I attended a couple of them a few years ago but haven't been down to one for quite awhile.
It wouldn't be quite correct to generalize, however, that all East German guns were inferior in quality. At one time, to avoid competition, the major brands collected under the Ernst Thellman umbrella (which was really first and foremost a way of keeping Suhl gunmaking as close to old traditions as was possible while maintaining a Socialist facade), were given different market niches. And Merkel, sadly, was lowest. To compensate, they were given the sport versions of the O/U, which got Olympic fame, but their sporting guns were the cheapest of all. Sauer was better, and Simson best, but the truly best-of-the-best in GDR was Buhag. They could make an A&D boxlock as nice as anyone.
...except that the claim according to the Sauer book...is that the GDR (East German) "Sauer" was not a Sauer at all...and that the East Germans used the "J.P. Sauer" name as a kind of label for a "Sauer-type" of shotgun...but of course the book was written by the West Germans...glad they're back together again...makes things so much simpler...
...except that the claim according to the Sauer book...is that the GDR (East German) "Sauer" was not a Sauer at all...
The East Germans made identical claims about the West German Sauer. They insisted that the machinery, the location, and most of the personnel were more important in terms of keeping the tradition than the firm's director and a handful of favorites. You're right, it's good they're together again
