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Posted By: FJS A. Kirchhof in Schmiedeberg - 09/20/12 10:11 PM
I have a 16 ga., hammerless, double with a trigger plate lock and a rather complicated cocking system employing a forestock under lever. The top barrel rib is marked in silver "A. Kirchhof in Schmiedeberg". No proof or other marks.

Schmiedeberg is in Saxony near Dresden. A reference from about 1890 indicates A. Kirchhof as a Master Gun Maker.

I would appreciate a first name or any other information about this maker.
Posted By: Der Ami Re: A. Kirchhof in Schmiedeberg - 09/21/12 02:35 PM
FJS,
It would be helpful if you would post pictures of the gun.A photo of the whole gun,of the action,of the "forestock under lever", and of any marks under the barrels.While these may not be proof marks,they may help others on this site ID people that may have worked on it,which may help in "dating it".Also check closely for a "Crown V" on the rib near the breech which, if present,would date it even closer.Hammerless(triggerplate)guns really predating the proof law(you said it had no proof marks and was from 1890s)would be rare.
Mike
Posted By: FJS Re: A. Kirchhof in Schmiedeberg - 09/21/12 06:03 PM
I do not know how to include photos in a Posting. I would be glad to send you photos as an e-mail attachment, if I had your address.

There are NO markings, anywhere, that I can find, save on the barrel rib, as described, plus a few punch assembly marks.
Posted By: Der Ami Re: A. Kirchhof in Schmiedeberg - 09/22/12 06:17 PM
See my PM
Mike
Posted By: ellenbr Re: A. Kirchhof in Schmiedeberg - 09/23/12 01:03 AM


The info is from Adolf Zimmer's 1877 text, 2nd edition, curiosity of Axel E.

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=201021&page=1
Some later Berger variants.

Subject Teschner-Collath / Berger variant:




Sometimes touchmarks will be found on the rotary lockup.





Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: A. Kirchhof in Schmiedeberg - 09/23/12 01:56 AM
This thread is probably in the above but I wanted to make sure it was included as it has W. Collath info as well as image components by Cordell:

http://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=193971&page=1

Teschner-Collath did sourced the makers of Zella Sankt Blasii & Mehlis for their offerings:

http://www.littlegun.info/arme%20allemande/artisan%20c%20d/a%20collath%20w%20%20gb.htm
Probably a percussion predecessor.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: kuduae Re: A. Kirchhof in Schmiedeberg - 11/04/12 03:08 PM
Nothing more than "A.Kirchhof in Schmiedeberg" existed is known by us.
IMHO this Kirchhof gun was not made by the Teschner-Collath factory as it is an unique recombination of known features. Sorry, but Raimey posted the wrong drawings from Zimmer's book. Those show Berger's needlefire gun and cartridge.
Kirchhofs gun features the slide-and-tilt action as patented by L.J. Gastinne through the agent A.Bellford in Britain, # 2778 of 1853, and used by Charles Lancaster on his base-fire cartridge guns. Gastinne was the son in law of Albert Renette. During his travelling years Rudolph Berger of Köthen for some time worked at the Gastinne-Renette company in Paris. Back in Köthen as a master gunsmith Berger combined the Gastinne action with his own coilspring locks to use a needlefire cartridge of his own design. This is the gun shown above by Raimey. Now Gustav Teschner of Frankfurt on Oder comes in. He copied the Gastinne action as modified by Berger and combined it with triggerplate locks and an improved cartridge that is more aptly named a "nailfire", as he inserted a small nail, "c" in the drawing, into the cartridge head. This nail was struck by rather conventional short strikers and in turn pierced the primer "e".

Teschner's son in law Wilhelm Collath took over the company about 1870.He later adapted the action to centerfire cartridges. The Teschner-Collath factory continued to build guns on this action up until WW2. This is why such Gastinne-Berger-Teschner-Collath slide-and-tilt actions are now universally ascribed to "Collath".
This cut from Zimmer's book shows the Teschner-Collath gun with it's triggerplate action, strikers linked to the hammers. Soon Teschner (or his shop foreman and successor Collath) added the "Collath" "wing nut" hammer-blocking safety.

As you see, Kirchhof's gun has very different locks. The strikers are driven by the hammers in a straight line. Such locks are shown by Zimmer "as offered by Leue & Timpe, Berlin" on a true centerfire gun.

Kirchhof combined the G-B-T-C slide and tilt action with the "Leue&Timpe" lockwork and added a hammerblock safety apparently of his own design, activated by a small crank in front of the triggerguard. He was not alone in making "improved" slide-and-tilt actioned guns in northern and northeastern Germany. F.i. both Kief and Westphal in Peine , though both outlets for Teschner too, offered their own "improved" guns with different safety arrangements. I have also seen a "Teschner-Collath" lookalike by another gunsmith, but with coilspring striker locks inside, and a shotgun by G.L.Rasch in Brunswick with a Lefaucheux breech action and Teschner's triggerplate locks and wing-nut safety. So the possible variation and recombinations are endless. Remember, the rough Damascus barrels were mostly imported then from Belgium anyhow and all other parts of a gun were hand-filed from very rough forgings. Any village blacksmith then was capable of producing such forgings and a shop employing a dozen gunsmithes like Kief's or Störmer's was certainly capable to make such guns.
IMHO this Kirchhof gun was really made by himself to his own ideas of a combination of features he thought the best. As it comes from the transitional time from pin- and needlefire to centerfire, it may have been built as a centerfire from the start.


Posted By: kuduae Re: A. Kirchhof in Schmiedeberg - 11/04/12 03:20 PM
BTW, the information on littlegun.be about Collath is all wrong. The gun shown as a "Collath" is in fact a "Schnellader" on Gastinne's slide-and-tilt action. "Schnellader" = quickloader was the term used by both Zimmer and Corneli for such early, outside-primed percussion breechloaders. This type of gun was alreadyout of fashion when Wilhelm Collath entered the scene in 1865.
Posted By: montenegrin Re: A. Kirchhof in Schmiedeberg - 11/04/12 08:35 PM
Kuduae, that is excellent information indeed, thanks for sharing.

With kind regards,
Jani
Posted By: kuduae Re: A. Kirchhof in Schmiedeberg - 11/04/12 10:06 PM
BTW, the centerfire hammerless gun Zimmer ascribed to Leue & Timpe is known in GB and other English speaking countries as the "Daw hammerless" and described as such in W.W.Greener's book "The Gun and it's Development".
Posted By: FJS Re: A. Kirchhof in Schmiedeberg - 11/07/12 05:29 AM
Kuduae - Thank you for a comprehensive explination of the prominent features of my gun!

FJS
Posted By: ellenbr Re: A. Kirchhof in Schmiedeberg - 11/07/12 02:26 PM
Most insightful info indeed but I think your opinion to be anything but humble. Anyway, I didn't say the image I posted was without reservation that of the subject sporting weapon as it was the only somewhat similar image of a similar platform I had on hand. I can stomach much of your supposition but I think the tubes may have been sourced from the Austro-Hungarian empire. About this time makers were trying to settle on a central-fire hammerless design making it more or less a transitional stage. It is possible that makers were scrubbing one off at a time, but mechanization soon would have the upper hand. If I have the location of the town of Schmiedeberg being in proximity of the Czech(Prag) & Polish(Warsaw) border, I contend that on this walkabout that A. Kirchhof either developed sourcing lines or carried with him innovations in technology from his walkabout, making it a transfer of technology. A wild guess that his walkabout just may have taken him thru Prag & Warszawa, where there was a most interesting assembling of craftsmen for such locations as Herzberg, Prag & Spandau. Take the extensive Collette family of mechanics for example in Warszawa. Some were either born or passed thru the aforementioned cities of Herzberg, Prag & Spandau. With the merging of technology in Prag & Warszawa/Varsovie/Varsowie, it is possible that A.Kirchhof tapped into that circle of makers. For the most part designers just do not seem to put their designs to production, but they source from a talented pool of most capable mechanics who can. Moreover, I do not think that A. Kirchhof designed the ensemble, but at the very least sourced the components. During this early period it is possible that he could have been designer & manufacture but the probability is very low.

Kind Regards,


Raimey
rse
Posted By: kuduae Re: A. Kirchhof in Schmiedeberg - 11/10/12 08:17 PM
At the time you are referring to, 1850 to 1900, Schmiedeberg was far away from the eastern German border. There was no Poland, Warszawa was a provincial city of the Czarist Russian empire. AFAIK the Colletes, Victor, Leon and Leopold, were a Liege, Belgium gunmaking dynasty from 1836 to 1909, with outlets in Warszawa and other places.
The former gunmaking town Herzberg with gunmakers like Tanner, Crause, Ebbecke, Welkner, Störmer, Klawitter and others never was in eastern Germany, not even after WW2. There the Hanoverian Gewehrfabrik (arsenal) was founded by king George II of GB & Hanover in 1738. Polish names were unknown here then. When G.F.Störmer closed his doors in 1929, the gunmaking in Herzberg came to an end. In fact, I know the town quite well, as I am responsible for the forests surrounding it. There are/were other Herzbergs farther east, but not gunmaking ones.
Mechanization was not so fast in the European guntrade as you think. In his 1884 book "Die Jagd und ihre Wandlungen" H.Corneli praises the factories of H.Pieper in Liege and Sauer & Sohn in Suhl. Pieper had a 60 hp steam engine which powered "near 400 machines" and could make guns with interchangeable parts "using the American system". Sauer & Sohn is described as the only German sporting gun maker well equipped with machines, so that little handwork is needed to make standardized guns.
What is now Czechia was then the Kingdom of Bohemia, part of the Habsburg k&k Austro-Hungarian empire. Prag was the provincial capital and Weipert the gunmaking center.
Jaroslav Lugs (a Czech btw) in his 1950s standard tome "Handfeuerwaffen" has not enough praise for the Bohemian gunmakers, but writes that they never made their own barrels, but always had to buy them in from Liege, Suhl and Ferlach.
So the idea that German gunsmithes bought in rough parts from mechanics in Czechia or Poland is ridiculous.
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