Hi. I'm new to the form and recently acquired a Heym single shot rifle.The barrel comes from Suhl and is dated February 1945, A cerosafe casting of the chamber shows it to be chambered for the 7X75R Von Hofe.The action looks pre war and has no markings except "Bruder Heym". Does anyone know when Heym marked their rifles as the Heym brothers as opposed to the more common Wilhelm Heym? Does anyone know a source for 7X75R brass or ammo?
Otto

Development of the 7x75R Vom Hofe Super Express began in 1957. The parent case is 9.3x74R.

With kind regards,
Jani

Are you sure there aren't any marks on the underside of the tube? A lot happened in 1945 but there may have been a calibre stamp. Is the stamp "Gebrüder Heym"? Bruno & Richard Heym were at the helm by the start of WWII. Folklore has it that the design of the 7x75R E.August Vom Hofe commenced in 1939.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

COW lists the 7X75 R VHE as circa 1939 and I have a pre war Meffert drilling rechambered for that cartridge.
I've rechecked the action markings and yes the action is marked "GEBRUDER HEYM" and "SUHL". It also has the serial number and the eagle over N and the eagle over J marks.
The barrel has the date 245, an eagle over N, and the Suhl proof house mark. No caliber or load data.
Do you know if the Heym brothers marked their rifles "Gebruder Heym" during the war? I thought that the action was pre war and that the eagle over J was added when the rifle was rebarreled in 1945 but maybe it isn't a pre war action.
Otto

I'll have to check to see if I have a copy of the "Cartridges of the World" but I suggest they verify their sources and produce a couple of rounds of ammo with the 7X75R Vom Hofe headstamp. Sources give that 1 lot of 1000 rounds were produced by DWM in 1942 and shipped to some fella in Stuttgart. All had the parent headstamp 9.3X74R. Walter Gehmann acquired the Vom Hofe firm, which Ernst August Vom Hofe had hung his shingle out in either the late 1920s or very early 1930s, in 1955/1956 and completed the development of the 7X75R Vom Hofe for tipping weapons. There was a 7X73 from the 1930s which I think was for a Hofmann rifle. There has been some talk of an elusive 7X76.5 Vom Hofe Super Express Rand/with a rim from the period.

There were several firms with the name Heym in Suhl and Fredrich Wilhelm & Gebrüder Heym being 2 of them. I'm sure they were related but Gebrüder Heym arrived much later on the scene, possibly between the turn of the 20th century & WWI. Gebrüder Heym made many of the Geha longarms and didn't survive WWII.

Are the Eagle proofs those with the wide wingspan?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I do not trust COW much with European cartridges.
Here is some information extracted from jagderleben.de:

1931: 7x73 Hofe-Mann Super Express
Early 1930s: 6x61.5 Hofe-Mann Express; ammo by DWM, arms by Funk, Suhl
1937: 5.6x61 Vom Hofe Super Express
1945:Vom Hofe dies on May 4
1956: Walter Gehmann takes over "Vom Hofe"
1941: Gehmann starts 7x66 Super Express
1954: Gehmann goes on with 7x66 SE development
1957: Gehmann starts working on 7mm rimmed; first version used 8x75R Behr necked down
Early 1960s: 8x75R Vom Hofe Super Express finalized, using 9.3x74R parent case.

With kind regards,
Jani

Very nice effort Jani. I may have created some confusion as usual so let me restate that yes there were 7X75R Vom Hofe Super Express cartridges with Walter Gehmann's name on the headstamp post 1958. But if the 7X75R Vom Hofe SE was available pre-WWII let's see some cases without Walter Gehmann's name on them. The 7X66 Vom Hofe SE was yet another example with a design phase commencing in the late 1930s. This period found Wilhelm Brenneke, Walter Gehmann & Ernst August Vom Hofe all chummy and deep in cartridge development. By the time of the U.S. of A.'s entry into WWII, sporting cartridge development, and possible production, at DWM was terminated while the 3 cartridge amigos fell out of love. Walter Gehmann waited them out with Ernst August Vom Hofe passing this world in 1945 while Wilhelm Brenneke tarried around to 1951. Shorty thereafter, the former DWM employee Walter Gehmann mounted an attempt to acquire the Vom Hofe firm and complete the cartridge development cycle on the 5.6X61 and 61R, 7X66 Vom Hofe, 7X75R Vom Hofe and others I'm sure.

Those in the know have conveyed to me that the Gebrüder Heym tipping weapon of question more than likely began life as a 7X65R and post 1957 was altered to the speedy 7X75R. There appears to be something inherent in the 7X75R Vom Hofe SE design that allowed the change from the 7X65R without compromising the integrity of the chamber. Of course much of this is dependent on the supplied verbiage and not on proofmark images.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

"COTW" contains many mistakes, especially regarding German cartridges.
The Dynamit Nobel (former RWS) reloading book "Wiederladen" writes about the 7x75R SE v.H.:
"The cartridge was announced by Walter Gehmann (who had taken over the vom Hofe firm in 1955) in the year 1958, however Ernst August v. Hofe had already experimented with the cartridge shortly before the war and he also brought ammunition into trade."

If the chamber of that particular rifle has been reamed from 7x65R to 7x75R at a later time, in Germany the rifle would have been subject to a re-proof, and should show the according proof marks.

Regards,
fuhrmann

Thanks to all who have responded to my question.
Raimey. The eagle proof marks on the action,both the eagle over N and eagle over J,have the wide wingspan.
Does anyone know the dates that Gebruder Heym produced rifles? Could he have produced the action in 1944-1945 along with the barrel?
Otto

[img]http://s585.photobucket.com/albums/ss291/otn/SSR/Gebruder%20Heym/[/img]

Thanks for the effort.











Can you tell me what the marks are on the underside of the tube?:




1936 Model 180

Here's a thread on a similar Greifeldt staker:
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=207429#Post207429

I think this examples attempts to answer the time frame of Gebrüder Heym which would be somewhere around say 1910 to early 1945.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Otto:
Any history on the stalker, GI bring back, etc.? I don't see a repair or reproof stamp on the tube unless it is on the side. Any sign of repair to the receiver? I wonder if there was some frame filing on the sideframe reinforcement or if some metal was removed from the receiver in early 1945? The answer(s) may lie with the Suhl proofhouse records if any exist for early 1945.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

No history on the stalker.
No markings on the top or sides of the barrel.
No sign of receiver repair. If a new barrel was fitted would they stamp the barrel or receiver with the eagle over "J"?
I can't find the two barrel tube marks in "The Standard Directory of Proof marks" but will try to poist a close up.
http://s585.photobucket.com/albums/ss291...relMarkings.jpg
Otto

(hint - copy the IMG code if you wish to post the image)

That's the best YJ, or whatever it is, forge stamp I've seen. No, you would not find these task marks in any proofmark reference that I am aware of. It notes 2 tasks or 2 efforts on the tube. Gebrüder Heym either sourced the longarm from Fredrich Wilhelm Heym or sourced the same contractor. The scrip "L" has been a hot topic as of late.


Hermann Weihrauch Zella-Mehlis O/U late 1940s



http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=231195#Post231195
This may be the same forge mark, slightly worn, but a single stamp noting a single task.


Greifeldt in 5.6X52R

A very similar script "L" on dougk's Funk: http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=227855#Post227855


It may be that the tube maker's marks after the steel type/bullet are similar.



Axel's Lovely Lovena - http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=227856#Post227856

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Otto:
Yes, the repair/reproof mark will accompany the original marks, typically on the replaced component. I'm not sure if a weapon was fitted with a new tube that the tube would wear the new weapon proof stamps while the frame would have a repair/reproof stamp. Whatever the alteration, it must have occurred in early 1945. There is a obscure/little known and infrequently implemented rule for tipping weapons with rimless(?) cartridges. If, if the caliber or bore cannot be located in the proof tables, and I assume this to include cartridges, then the stamp for the calibre dimensions is waved. All the above is based on me having the rule correct. The proofmaster had quite the discretion in this article. This rule took the cartridge shackles off the gunsmith and allowed him to take odd foreign orders for cartridges not found in the German domestic market. Maybe the fella in Stuttgart that ordered the 1000 rounds of 7X75R Vom Hofe SE ordered this stalker also. I don't know who else might have ammo for the longarm if indeed the bulk of sporting arms cartridges dropped off in 1942. Or with a higher probability, Walter Gehmann recognized that Ernst August Vom Hofe was on his deathbed and snuck a few 7x75R Vom Hofe SE examples out before WWII ended it all for everyone. Walter Gehmann may have decided to mount a takeover earlier but the end of WWII put a kink in his plans.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey. What do you mean by "copy the img code to post the image"?I assume that it refers to having the image appear in the reply instead of having a link to a web hosting service but I'm not familiar with IMG code.
What would be a common task on a barrel that would warrant a task stamp? Applying a rib? installing sights? The stamp looks like a v over J to me. I wonder if the stamp is task specific? Someones initials?
Otto

There's an IMG Code associated with the image and is on the bottom rung. Yes, it will just display the uploaded image.

A task would be like forging a tube from a billet or bar and possibly making the preliminary bore pass. Later maybe rifling and profiling. These stamps are there for mainly one reason: compensation and along with compensation comes liability. Attaching all the tube components may fall into that category but that may lie with the barrel knitter. These stamps are initials, pseudo trademarks, hallmarks, etc.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

There were just a few klans of weapons craftsmen with the last initial J: Jaeger, Jopp, Jülich, Jung & Just. I don't recall exactly what weapons making task A. & J. Jülich were centered around, but the rest knew tubes. I don't know the descendants of August Jopp but he hung out his shingle in 1850 and during this time the gunmaking community was a very tight-knit community with sourcing lines along those of marriage. Friedrich Jung too was founded in the 19th century & had heirs & assigns like Oskar & Hugo. Richard Jung was also in the mix and held a stake in Greifeldt, and they offered a similar model. From the get-go, Friedrich Greifeldt, Emil Schlegelmilch, Alfred Greifeldt, Oskar Jung along with Richard Jung were at the helm at some point at Greifeldt & Company from 1885 to WWII. Wilhelm Richard Jaeger was a tube maker and for now I attach a high probability of a "J" found on a tube to be associated with Jaeger. E. Just was also a tube maker in the 1930s.




Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey. Thank you for the additional information. I find the history of these old guns as enjoyable as shooting them.
I've shot the 7X75R in my rechambered drilling and loaded like a 7X57R it is both accurate and pleasant to shoot.
"The IMG code is on the bottom rung" The bottom rung of what? I thought that it might be on the web address of the picture but can't find it.
Otto

Otto:
Would you oblige us with some images of the dreiläufer as well as the marks? If both of the longarms were altered pre-1946, then you may have cornered the market on 7X75R.

Under "Share This Photo" on Photobucket there should be 4 image choices:

Email & IM
Direct Link
HTML Code
IMG Code

Which one are you selecting to post the link?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

From several sources, that is the still unpublished "Flintenkalle's Directory of the German Guntrade", concerned with pre-war addresses only, and the books H-J Fritze "Suhl, Heimat der Büchsemacher" + W.B. Dixon "European Sporting Rifle Cartridges", I have put together some additional information or remarks on the subjects under discussion.
The eagle/J (in fact a German I standing for "Instandsetzung" = repair) indicates the gun was proofed as rebarreled February 1945. The 1940 proof law required each gun to be clearly marked with the cartridge name. This is still not done. The bottom of the barrel lumps is still unengraved. No quality gun would have left a Suhl shop with such blank spaces. The rifle was never mounted with a scope, even then a "must" on a flat-shooting stalking rifle. As US forces occupied Suhl on April 3, 1945, I think the rifle was "liberated" then from a shop in Suhl, before the Russians took over Suhl on July 3, 1945. The US forces prepared a document dated April 13, 1945, listing the Suhl guntrade then in business: 23 "factories", among them Gebrüder Heym at Schlageterstr. 53 and F.W. Heym at Schillingstr. 7 and Mauerstr.3, 28 independent gunmakers, 10 dealers or agencies, 4 barrelmakers, two of them Kelbers, Louis at Trübenbachstr.1 and Wilhelm at Beyersgrund 3. They did not list the several hundred outworkers like engravers, stockmakers or finishers then still working for the gunmakers. On October 25, 1945 Gebrüder Heym are again mentioned as one of the gunmakers producing shotguns (only) for the Soviet Union. According to Flintenkalle , who lists no less than 59 Heym's in the German guntrade, writes "Gebrüder Heym", Judithstr.53, street renamed by the Nazis Schlageterstr.53, owned at first by Richard and Emil, later by Richard and Bruno Heym, was founded in 1913. Gebr.Heym at least made the original rifle, who did the rebarrel job remains a mystery.
According to Dixon in 1942 DWM assigned case number 605 to the 7x75R and produced a first lot of 1000 cartridges. So an avid experimenter may have ordered the rebarrel job in the 1940s, but WW2 ended before the job was completed.
By now I got wiser on that "L" or "Z", resembling the symbol for the British pound sterling: This mark was used by the Gebrüder Kelber barrelmaking company, founded by Louis Kelber in 1894, owned then by Louis, Robert and Wilhelm Kelber. They used either this L stamp or a LK. In 1927 the "Gebr. Kelber" company was dissolved, but as noted above both Louis and Wilhelm Kelber started again on their own, Louis using the "LK" stamp and Wilhelm the well-known "WK". Who, one or both?, for which orders?, continued to use the "GB pound" stamp? Wilhelm at least is known as a rifling specialist, while Louis also made barrel ribs as a side business.

Very nice tid-bit of info there Axel. I have to say I should have known but I would have never put a script "L" with Kelber. But that info begs the question of just how many craftsmen did the boys Kelber employ and what was there yearly output. Because there are just so many tubes with there mark. On some they may have just been tube knitter while on others they were just the tube forgers. I thought the realization might come back to you if after ya'll moved from Strehlen to Zella Sankt Blasii while you were ferrying tubes to the Z-M proofhouse on your bicycle(which you acquired from the A. Stöver bicycle & gunshop in Harz), you remembered where you collected the tubes????? What prompting does Shotgun Charlie need to get the publication off the ground: a nasty-gram, sweet talk thru a lovely letter, funding. ....???

Was there a Model number for the stalker and where are the reamers for the 7x65 to 7x75 conversion?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey.When in doubt about computer things, I generally ask my son.
He explained the difference between the IMG address and the Photobucket address.I've done some test postings and I should be able to attach future pictures with my reply. The drilling was made in March 1938 and was originally in 7X57R with two separate stamts for this caliber. No stamp for the 7X75R rechamber. So there is no way to know if it was pre or post war
Kuduae.Thank you for your imput.A local German rifle collector also commented on the lack of engraving on the barrel lumps despite going to the work of putting a gold band around the breach. He also felt that the rifle may have not been finished due to a premature separation from its gun shop.Do you think that Gebruder Heym would have been making rifles like this one in 1944-1945 or is it more likely that it is an older rifle that was rebarreled in 1945?
Otto
Otto

IMHO this is indeed an older rifle sent to Suhl for rebarreling.
Often GIs did not know that German guns sometimes had two or more interchangeable barrels. Take f.i. my family heirloom Meffert Hubertus gun. It's original damascus barrels were smashed in 1945 and the stock broken. But my Grandfather had two pairs of new barrels made and Nitro-proofed at Zella-Mehlis in 1942, 16 & 16/70 shotgun and 6.5x52R aka.25-35 &16/70 Buechsflinten ones. I am the fifth generation since 1893 to use it.
By coincidence one of the few true H.Goering rifles surfaced just a few hours ago: It is also a 7x75R vHSE, already well documented from the making in Suhl end. This one apparently solves the mystery of the "Epl; Stuttgart" who ordered the first batch of cartridges from DWM. The Goering rifle was ordered to be made by Edgar Strempel, Suhl through Robert Eblen, a gunmaker/dealer at Lange Str., Stuttgart to be presented to H.Goering by a Mr.Truchsess.

Well how about that. Nice tid-bit of vital info. And Mr. Truchsess is the chocolatier, you've mentioned prior, who had the German Luftwaffe as a client? So maybe the penmanship was poor and "Epl" was supposed to be "E.Spl" for Edgar Strempel or Eblen? With Eblen taking the order, it still supports the theory that the bulk of the work on almost any German sporting weapon was performed either in Suhl or Zella-Mehlis. Otherwise it just didn't make economic sense.

Mike Ford has an interesting Meffert dreiläufer rebarrel post WWII.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Kuduae. Do you know if the Goering rifle has the 7X75R markings on the barrel? As noted above, my rifle has no caliber or load markings and I'm not sure if it was just an oversight or the wildcat nature of the 7X75R.
Otto

Otto, I don't know how the Strempel / Eblen / Göring / 7x75R v.Hofe SE rifle is marked, as I have only seen photos of the engravings and inlays. Here is a photo of that rifle published in H-J Fritze's "Suhl" book, probably from a Suhl archive.

IMHO the lack of caliber designation on your barrel is a further indication, like the blank lumps, that your rifle was lifted from a shop in 1945 in an unfinished state. The German 1940 proof law required the real cartridge designation to be marked on a gun before it was released to the public. As "7x75R vom Hofe Super Express" is a bit long to be stamped on the under barrel flat, it was probably intended to have this long and novel monicker engraved on one of the upper barrel flats or the rib, together with the "maker/retailer" name. Evidently your barrel never made it to an engraver after proof, so it lacks the usual inscriptions and decorations.
Loads were not to be marked after 1940 any more. While before a maker could specify a reduced-pressure load under the old law, the 1940 law required any gun to be proofed for the highest-pressure factory load then available. At the same time these pressures were set as "maximum pressure" for a given chambering. Noone was allowed to load cartridges exceeding this max pressure.

Many thanks to all for your imput.
Otto

Axel:
Any idea who the other 2 tube makers were and also have you any info that a Schüler(Richard/Robert/???) either owned or managed one of the Kelber's shops? Could the "GB Pound" sterling stamp be a combination of S & L?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Richard Schüler, the then owner of the August Schüler company, did not make his own barrels. He relied on barrels made mostly by Wilhelm Kelber. Wilhelm Kelber's "WK" stamp often misleads Americans to assign bolt actions Schüler made for the trade to Krieghoff. H-J. Fritze in his book quotes a list of the Suhl guntrade, compiled by the US Army on April 13, 1945, after they had occupied Suhl. It lists four barrelmaking "factories" active then: W.Richard Jäger (not related to Franz Jäger) at Gustloffstr.34, Louis Kelber at Trübenbachstr.1, Wilhelm Kelber at Beyersgrund 1 and Max Stoll at Döllstr.4/6. Certainly at least these 4 were active before WW2 too.
BTW, the Suhl barrelmakers did not forge their barrel blanks, they only bored, reamed rifled and "knitted" the barrels, that is, they brazed barrels and lumps. Filing, Laying and soft soldering the ribs were responsibilities of other specialised craftsmen. The Suhl guntrade relied on only two forges for their rough parts: the Sauer forge and the Schilling forge, tm S in hexagon, now a technical museum run by very old Mr.Schilling. There was another forge, the Gesenkschmiede in Zella-Mehlis.

All,

This has been a very informative thread, thank you.

Kuduae,

Great detail. Much of this applies to many of my guns.

Buchseman

Agreed! Axel, Raimey is right what can we do to assist in getting "Flintenkalle's Directory of the German Guntrade" into publication?
This sort of history continues to disappear faster than it surfaces and I would sure be sorry to see this compilation of information lost with time! This thread has been especially interesting in that it applies to so many firearms from Suhl during that time frame.

m-4

Yes, Axel thank you for the effort and I asked for an expansion of some info you had previously posted in an effort to gain a little more knowledge. Instead of email, I decided to post here for the benefit of the couple others that follow along. I'm curious if Ernst Stoll(maybe descendants of Friedrich Stoll) was the father of Max Heinrich Stoll and when he might have hung out his tube making shingle. I would assume Wilhelm Richard Jäger originally of Mehlis seems to have a long career of tube making and may have at one time had a shop in Suhl & Zella-Mehlis. Surely the Jägers of Benshausen, Suhl & Zella-Mehlis can trace their roots back to a focal point? Also there were larger concerns like Kriehgoff, Sauer, Simson, etc. had rolled their own but their mechanics weren't specifically labeled as tube makers? But in the census or town records their occupation would have been listed?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse