They're winning. Thanks to your governor It looks like gays in your state will not have to sit "in back of the bus".

Good on Jan Brewer for vetoing that bill. It was the second time she did it, but I think the first time it was vetoed was part of her stand to get the AZ legislature to do the Medicaid expansion to implement the ACA.

Unexpectedly progressive.

Facts like this nightmare of Obamacare is just getting worse and worse every day for obama and the libtards!


"Pollster John Zogby reports in our weekly White House report card that support for Obamacare continues to sink, a real problem for President Obama's second term agenda.

"A downer week for the president. A new independent poll shows that 56 percent of the uninsured now have an unfavorable view of the Obamacare health care plan. Only 22 percent view it favorably. These numbers among the uninsured are substantially lower than a previous poll. A real problem for Obama. Any hope for the success of Obamacare rests on persuading the uninsured to enroll.

and this:

According to the New York Times, 800,000 Obamacare enrollees failed to pay their first premium.

Even as the Obama administration attempts to put a happy face on its low four million enrollees—a figure far removed from its seven million goal--the New York Times says at least 20% of all the people who applied for Obamacare never paid their first month’s premium, thereby rendering them still uninsured.

and this:

Just 11% of Obamacare customers were previously uninsured.

The purported purpose of Obamacare was to increase health care coverage of uninsured Americans. However, as the Wall Street Journal reported, a McKinsey & Co. study last month found that “only 11% of consumers who bought new coverage under the law were previously uninsured.”

and this:

Obama reassured Americans at least 36 times that if they liked their health care plan, they could keep their health care plan.

President Barack Obama’s now-infamous promise, “If you like your plan, you can keep your plan” was named Politifact’s “Lie of the Year.” Obama stated the claim at least 36 times, and several Democrats running in tight races parroted the president’s comments before millions of Americans saw their health insurance plans canceled due to Obamacare. Political ads have already begun hitting voters showcasing Democratic candidates repeating Obama’s
ill-fated promise.

and this;

56% of uninsured Americans do not like Obamacare.

The Kaiser Family Foundation’s recent polling data reveal that 56% of uninsured Americans--the very people whom Obamacare purports to help--do not like Obamacare.

and this
According to the Obama administration’s own figures, Obamacare will spike premiums on 11 million small business employees.

A new report from the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services concluded that two-thirds of small businesses that offer health insurance will pay higher premiums due to Obamacare. That, reports the Washington Post, means 11 million workers can expect their premiums to jump because of Obamacare. Worse for Democrats, because many employers renewed their pre-Obamacare health plans before the end of 2013, many of these rate spikes will be timed to hit beginning in the second part of 2014 right before the November 4 midterm elections.

Hey Dave:
I think you just annoyed two Libtards!!
Jim

I didn't think there was any gay rights wording in that bill, seems like it was a slap at small business. Now, what's a gay business owner to do when they're dragged into court for a perceived slight against a straight activist.

Craig:
That's the problem with Libtards and the so-called "mainstream news media" with their slant on news reporting. You're right and there was nothing anti gay in it.
In fact this law codified the long standing right of a business to post and observe the following:
Jim

"WE RESERVE THE RIGHT TO REFUSE SERVICE TO ANYONE"

Jim I saw a lot of those signs around here back in the 60's but I don't ever see them in the South anymore. Not sure that's a 'long standing right' today, at least not down here...Geo

I still see them out here George. But then I do live in Arizona where we don't like the government telling us what to do.
That "veto" by Governor Brewer was IMO a temporary accommodation.
The majority of the citizenry here support this bill.
Jim

I believe you believe it's a temporary accommodation, Jim. It's confusing to me. Surely not for a factory or mid-terms and later. What's behind it, please?

I think it's tough for a business to decline some off the shelf widget for sale, but what if creativity, passion and judgement are needed to do a one off job. Nothing fancy, a tattoo, event pictures, catering....how can someone be compelled to meet some subjective result.

I'd hope mz Brewer is just playing ball, like any good lock step lib would. Heck, just ask don lemon about unwritten pc rules of racial privilege. She could be a political wimp, or maybe can see the bigger picture of a united front and teamwork.

What's behind it King:
Many Americans are sick and tired of being told who they have to do business with among other things. And when you are being compelled to do business with entities who spit on your religious beliefs it get even more people upset.
The Supreme Court is eventually going to have to wade in and decide if someone's religious beliefs in fact override the Libtard thinking that you can't refuse to deal with those in conflict with these beliefs.

Like he said some in United States are sick and tired of helping and doing business with people that are not like themselves. I suspect gays are first to be followed by foreign born people, unwed mothers, divorced people,......

Thats what I enjoy the most !

And for those libtards that think Obama cares one wit about the gays your wrong,its all about changing the headlines of the obamacare circling the drain !

Obama administration let anti-gay Muslim leader into U.S.

"Even as the Obama administration denounced what it called anti-gay legislation in Arizona and the president sat out the Sochi Olympics because of Russia’s crackdown on same-sex couples, the State Department allowed an Islamic preacher who called for the death penalty for homosexuals into the country for a tour of hate."

Many politicians from both parties do not care about electorate. The only thing I ask for is they wear jackets with decals on them just like athletes letting voters know WHO PAID FOR THEM.

MardiGras Float



"Recalls are not just for auto companies "

Either that, or it's a drop back convenience issue that can stir support from useful idiots. Now there couldn't be anything else going on in the country with say ocare, jobs, foreign relations meltdowns, beating the dead horse and... Hang on, gay rights, now that should be front and center, noth'in like look'in out for Joe mainstream and letting him do what he needs to take care of his family and affairs.

The Libatards are going to be taking up the cause of NAMBLA next....right after they start mandating mandatory gay orientation classes in Jr. High where everyone gets cornholed whether they want it or not. Most likely by a gay teacher who is a member of NAMBLA in front of the class.

Right along with winning future presidential elections.

I don't think so....I think enough of the functional idiots that voted for Obama twice have finally learned their lessons the Dems aren't going to pull anything off the next time.....

Thinking short term that is possible, but in terms of long term prognosis the party is on life support.

I'm sorry but this is just idiotic. And it makes the rest of us on the right look like idiots. Why? Because it is so unlikely as to stretch all credulity. And why is that?

Because right now, in both our countries, the liberals have whipped up so much hysteria about the treatment of "children" that 16 year old BOYS, who have had relationships with FEMALE teachers, are now permanently scarred victims and the women go to jail. It is beyond laughable but that is the world we live in.

To imagine that in the same world, where women having sex with teenage boys is a regularly prosecuted crime, that it would be fine for men to have sex with boys, doesn't make sense. It's just ridiculous fear-mongering.

Let's try to keep our comments that add to our credibility, not make us look like illiterate fools.

I'm with James. I doubt there are any here without a LGTB member in their near or extended families. As teachers, friends and colleagues they've contributed out of all proportions to their numbers in our communities and personally to my enjoyment and development. Without a speck of sexual proselytizing. None. One of the most encouraging indicators of our humanity in this respect is when leaders who literally run countries, often from the right, protect and defend their children's sexual orientation, placing love before ideology. Love to me is god.

I wonder if the honest numbers support this. It may be so, but this reads like a progay talking point. It justifies and normalizes far left social engineering, and does not generally come from wacko right wing leaders.

'Friends and colleagues' are just fellow citizens, no more or no less. Search san fran gay pride parade or kid's theme park gay day and reinforce that's the kind of non sexual proselytizing that would resonate at say the next forestry group meeting.

Craig, in any group there are vocal advocates and those who mind their own business. Conservatives, liberals, Christians, Mormon, Muslims, double gun enthusiasts, model train aficionados, etc. Because we can find vocal advocates for gay lifestyle doesn't mean they are all after our children. Besides, as I have said before, I seriously doubt it's possible to "convert" a heterosexual man to homosexuality. We is what we is!

I think what many take as an effort to proselytize for the activity is in fact a misguided attempt at proselytizing to be allowed to live their lives free of discrimination and violence, as has been their typical lot in life for hundreds, if not thousands of years.

Jaegermeister is correct, in my view. The republicans may win the next few elections, the short term, but long term they are in serious trouble. As was noted in a column I was recently reading, culture trumps politics. I believe it was Mark Steyn who was being quoted and he tends to be correct. If the conservative movement in the US does not find a way to reconcile conservative thought with inclusiveness and a positive vision, the Republicans will whither away.

Personally, I think the idea of the Tea Party, a cultural movement separate from party politics, is on the right track, although I'm not sure how effective they will end up being. We need to find a way to galvanize people culturally, and then let then choose the political party that best suits them. The party itself can't move society.

I had dinner with five liberal friends Saturday night. I'm the token red neck. Naturally the after dinner conversation turned to politics. At some point I made an impassioned defence of the idea that conservatives actually do give a shit about everyone and that it is both tiresome and wrong to hear again and again what cold hearted selfish bastards we are. It's just we believe in a very different approach.

For my assembled audience it was a stunning revelation, yet it is also one that fits with who they understand me to be.

We get nowhere, make no progress in advancing our cause, pretending that NAMBLA is a issue. Or that gay men are trying to convert our children.

I thought I was able to point out that 'they' are not all vocal advocates. By social engineering, I meant the vocal few are entitled to impose on all. Also, mz lerner may be headed back to testify about political and ideological discrimination, what more convenient of an issue to parade at will to distract.

The R's may very well be doomed to extinction, but voters have a very short attention span. It'll be up to the R's and no one else to ensure their viability.

Hey Jager, why do you say gays will be first? You spend a lot of time worrying about gay issues. Are you forgetting that the Obama Administration's IRS in Washington became sick and tired of helping and doing business with Conservatives??? American citizens are being targeted for the sin of forming Orrganizations that advance Conservative values of limited government, sound fiscal policies, and reducing taxes.

The IRS earlier admitted that Conservatives groups applying for 501(c) status were intentionally targeted, and they apologized. But they have delayed and stymied the investigations that are trying to find out who was responsible. IRS Commissioner Lois Lerner, who pleaded the 5th, will be finally testifying before Congress this week.

You can stop worrying about foreign born people too if you are here legally and working toward citixenship. Anyone who broke the law to get into the U.S. ought to be stripped of any assets they accumulated while here. Then they should be detained for a percentage of the time they were illegally here and forced to work on a chain gang clearing land and building the long delayed border fence. Then they should be deported. We have plenty of people on Welfare and Food Stamps who can pick our grapes and lettuce.

The TEA party which just turned 5 (note; OWS is now thankfully done in by defecating in the streets, raping women and drug arrests.),is indeed to future of the Republican party if they can continue to bring the changes needed to the old guard,the Alan West's,Rand Paul,Michell Bachmans and others are what will lead us from the depths of poverty,debt and government intrusion.
No other generation has been burdened with the debt-both national and student,lack of jobs been forced to move back in with their parents then this younger generation.They see the failed "stimulus " results every day in commodity inflation,and massive unemployment-the real unemployment labor force participation rate.

With the full exposure of the marxist/socialist dreams of the Dems imploding daily and the desperation of this administration to hide its failed polices getting worse its not unlikely that we will indeed have more then just a couple election cycles of loses for the Dems. It took 4 years of Carter to get this country's voters to Reagan,and obama is light years worse then Carter ever was !

Craig, you are correct in my view although I didn't quite get it from your original comment re social engineering. Thanks for clarifying for me. It's the vocal few that drive us all mad and skew the perspective, IMHO.

Dave, I was a supporter of Ron Paul and think highly of his son. The future of the Republicans may well depend on the Tea Party and the Tea Party may well end up having very successfully altered the course of both the Republican Party and the US. My only point was that it must be organizations like the Tea Party, which are cultural and philosophical in nature, rather than a political party like the Republicans, that lead thinking.

I liked Ron as well CB but always wondered if he was electable, his son Rand is different imo in that has a wider audience.Allen West,Mike Lee,Louis Gohmer,Jason Chaffetz,Trey Gowdy to name are few are the future of the Rebublincan party if they are to survive.

The days of Bohner and McCain are over and they will know it after the mid terms.

Dave, I completely agree about the difference between Rand and Ron. Ron was never going to be President. But he stood for something and he "spoke the truth". That ranks pretty high in my books.

Its absolutely NOT more idiotic then forcing everyone to accept two men or two women as being a legitimate "Marriage" despite thousands of years of history to the contrary.

Anyone who would make the leap to support that...would support the other as well.

After all many of the same people are trying to push for legalization of drugs.....starting with pot...next it will be Cocaine, then heroin, meth and what else....

THey progress with the least objectional to the most...exactly the way they have been doing with gun control....and its the very same groups behind all of it.

Right out of Sol Alinsky's democrat bible "Rules for radicals".

canvasback, bone does make a legitimate, if extreme point here. You've got an example and proof positive right in front of you. The slimy piece of shit above, nca225, who has an inordinate interest in the passage of gay marriage and gay rights laws, has also advocated on these very pages for drug legalization and restrictions on our Second Amendment rights. It looks like boneheaddoctor has hit the nail on the head with his last post.

NAMBLA may be a bit of a stretch today, but if anyone told you 30-40 years ago that it would be commonplace to find school children being taught in Public Schools that it is OK for two men who partake in anal sex with each other to marry and adopt and raise children, you'd have thought they were crazy. Slow insidious brain-washing is taking place every day. Pick up a copy of "Rules for Radicals" to understand how the so-called Progressives are doing it.

The pro-gay sexual prosletizing that King dishonestly denies, and that craig sees openly displayed in large American cities or "Gay Day" festivities at amusement parks is getting just as common on American television. I'm not sure how King can deny that, but that's what he does. You can doubt that sexual preferance conversion of young impressionable children is not possible, but it is proven fact that sexually abused children are much more likely to become pedophiles and abusers as adults themselves. They sure weren't born that way either.

I have no doubt that most gays are in fact born that way. But I'm certain that some become mixed up at an early age for whatever reason. Some children are born with cleft palates, but we aren't giving up and saying that it's normal. We search for a cause and a cure.

BHD

There are thousands of years of historical record that confirm the practice of homosexuality. That historical record also demonstrates that in some cultures it was accepted and in others it was suppressed. All those same cultures had marriage between and man and woman as well. Many of them had slavery, plural marriages, viewed women as property, arranged and forced marriages of children and, relative to our society, an extraordinary degree of physical violence that was the norm. What's your point?

Supporting or allowing one means supporting the other? That's a false equivalency. Please dismantle my arguement about current societal mores regarding sex with children (male female couplings) and explain how male male couplings, adult to child, will be accepted. I don't see it.

So.....the war on drugs has worked out? Is effective? It is a common historical fact that prohibition of alcohol gave rise to organized crime in America. Subsequently and despite that lesson, we've done the same thing with drugs. The status quo is an abject failure in every regard. What do you think we should do? Double down on a failed program?

Instead of thinking for yourself, you follow predictable knee jerk paths. Very much the same as the stupid liberal/leftists so many of us here decry. If we want success in the long run, people like you need to do better. You probably have it in you, you just haven't so far. At least as we can tell from what we read here.

When I read something from Dave K I know that it will be based as much as possible on facts, which he makes available to us all here. When I read something from Keith or Craig, I know I'm reading something that has been well reasoned by the writer. Usually, if I disagree with something it is because I haven't understood the true intention of the post. When I read your posts, while often funny and often completely in sync with my thinking, I'm also reading what could be a liberal caricature of a right winger.

Keith, let's say that homosexuality is not inate. That there is a cause and potentially a cure. That it is a disorder or a result of damage and we need to work to find a cure. Let's say that's all true.

Do those people deserve the discrimination and violence that has been rained down on them? If JRB had been exposed to someone with brain damage that caused them to behave in odd ways, should he still be fuming about it thirty years later? Because that is what you are arguing. So which is it? Are they sicko's who deserve our scorn or are they damaged in ways we don't understand and deserve our compassion and help?

Unusually for you, you seem to be trying to have it both ways.

BTW, I have spent my entire career in sales and marketing. My father, grandfather and great grandfather were in sales and marketing. My uncle and great grandfather were both premiers of a Canadian province and both highly regarded for their accomplishments. I know something about influencing minds.

It is what I have been advocating here since I started engaging in misfires....a thoughtful dialogue that aims to understand our enemy, not make a caricature of him, and one that seeks long term ideas on how to win the hearts and minds of run of the mill Americans and Canadians.

It's too easy to spend our time here in a circle jerk, telling each other how right we are while using King and nca255 as proxy for the left. And Keith, while I fully agree with and support your exhortations to support the NRA, we need longer term, more culturally engaging solutions. There is a slow march to the left happening. We have been losing that battle.

Keith I've said this before and will say it again. References by a certain member to your daughters aside, our habit of driving away all those who don't think like us is foolish. We theoretically share a common interest here with King, Gnomon, Dave in Maine and many others. If we are unable to engage with them over time and win them over to the correctness of our ideas on gun control, what hope do we have with the 260 million North Americans who don't own guns.

And I reject your previous argument that the guys here have made up their minds and there is no point engaging them. That they are fifth columnists. Much like us, they are just believers in what they believe and likely ready for a compelling argument and vision. IMHO we give them plenty of facts and argument and very little vision. Oh yeah, we also give them a lot of bile and hate....feeds right into their preconceived notions.

Take a look at what Obama did in 2008. A completely useless community organizer with a thinner resume than me or you, galvanized a majority of voters and became President. How? Because, stupid as it was, he offered up a compelling vision. If we can't learn from that we deserve to fail.

Let's say it's inate, or let's say it's a character flaw or even some medical disorder. Take a pick, or any combination.

Why are gays framed, sold?, as the victim even by friends. Why not start the discussion that 'straights' are being discriminated against. Shouldn't basic rights, protections, laws, policy, etc. apply to all, and no citizen should be entitled to special status.

What's special status. Exec orders, regulation, ignoring lawful votes, legislating from the bench, early education funding, and on and on. If it's convenient, there're many terrible historical examples to dig up, but the rain of discrimination and violence just isn't so.

Craig, I entirely agree. No special status for anyone....gay, black, native etc. You have my vote.

However, if I were gay and an activist type and I looked around to see what behaviors other minorities had used to advance their cause, I'd probably choose the path they have and the path you and I hate. It's not gays....it's what has proven successful to activists from any minority that considers itself discriminated against. The problem lies not with the minority attempting to advance their cause by all means effective, but with the majority as led by their courts and politicians for being so foolish as to go along with it. To be blackmailed into it. Spineless!

What's the solution? Quite easy, theoretically. Don't discriminate. All men are created equal, although that's not actually true. All men have equal value as humans, but they are not equal. Some are big, some small, some are smart, some not so smart.

As far as the rain of discrimination and violence not being so, I have to disagree. I'm 55. For a good portion of my life, around the world, in most countries, engaging in homosexual activity was not just frowned upon, but illegal. State (country, not US state)and cultural supported discrimination against them is easy to find even now. Numerous countries offer the death penalty for homosexual activity. Look at Russia before the Sochi games. Gay bashing is common enough that we have a name for it....gay bashing.

Members here have described how they had to be physically held back from committing violence against gays because they were expressing affection for each other. I said it before and I'll repeat now, whatever it was those two gay fellows were doing that so enraged and offended JRB in the bar in the late seventies, I highly suspect that if the same behavior had been exhibited at the time by a hetero couple, while JRB may have found it offensive, I sincerely doubt that violence would have been his reaction.

Apparently its ok for them to discriminate :

What will the fascist gay lobby say now?

Governor of New Mexico, Susana Martinez, has been told by her gay hairdresser that he will no longer be working on her coif. It seems that her hairdresser, Mr. Antonio Darden, does not appreciate the Governor’s stance on homosexuality and gay marriage. Because of this he will no longer cut her hair.

Darden told a local news station that he cut the governor’s hair three times, but won’t do it again as long as she continues to oppose gay marriage.

The fact is that the gay lobby and the liberal community have overplayed their hand. They have been refusing service (and worse) to conservatives FOR YEARS. Whether the issue has been homosexuality, immigration, abortion, etc. they have always found reasons to marginalize and attack us. Now that Christians have turned the tables and refused to perform at gay weddings, the gay lobby has gotten litigious.

Read more at http://eaglerising.com/4959/fascist-gay-lobbys-hypocrisy/#Iix2Q7ZwGC5HC3Zz.99

Tough call on the 'do not discriminate'. All law is discriminatory in some sense or to some one. What I think should be without question is equal application and properly change laws as indicated or wanted. The lobbying tactics are ok to me, it's the unilateral possibly unlawful/unconstitutional force feeding on all.

Gay bashing in other countries, that's their call and not related to social engineering that's 'changing' the US. Seems an issue worth fighting for, should be worth fighting for internationally. The folks that can affect the world apparently choose not to, wonder why.

James, I don't have time right now ro respond to everything, but I do want to take a moment to respond to the above. You and I, we typically agree on almost everything. We have corresponded both on and off these open forum pages without a trace of rancor or animosity. But I am here to say that I disagree completely with your notion that we share a common interest with King, Gnomoron, nca225, Dave-in-Maine, homer, etc. That is to say, unless you think we all have the goal of slowly indoctrinating others, especially the silent majority who views but never posts here, into believing and supporting a Leftist, Socialist, Progressive platform which includes restrictions on our gun rights.

You have been steadfast like Diogenes looking and searching for an honest man, trying to engage them and make them see the same light that the founding fathers of the U.S. framed the Constitution upon. Others have tried too, and failed. You have not changed one neuron in their Liberal Left brains. If you think you have, please show us. If anything, King, the mostly last man standing until the re-emergence of the slimy piece of shit ncaa225, has become even more entrenched and more determined to simply ignore any reason or truth or factual evidence.

It's admirable for you to try, but you are beating your head against a stone wall and lending them credence and an air of respectability that they do not deserve. I can't make you stop. I won't even ask you to stop. You'll have to see for yourself that you are wasting your time, and at the same time giving them a place of honor and a platform to use our First Amendment to undermine the Second and many others.

If you could just give us one small example where you've changed a Libtards heart and mind here...

I don't expect to myself. I gave up on that some time ago. Better to direct our energies to simply exposing them for what they are and speaking to that silent majority that sits on the fence.

And that James, is why they all worked so hard to a man to keep Second Amendment topics buried here in Misfires. The last thing they want is for the truth about Liberalism and Socialism to see the light of day.

craig, as you no doubt know, what I meant by "do not discriminate" is exactly what you wrote....equal application of all laws combined with the removal or adjustment of current laws that are discriminatory.

Keith, it's the one area I know we disagree on and I'm fine with that. Because the thing we disagree about is primarily and simply tactics. Not objectives. You keep being you and I'll keep being me and we'll continue to enjoy each other here on misfires. Takes all kinds!

There are a couple points I want to make with regard to this paragraph. The first is we ARE like all those members you just mentioned and millions of other liberal/leftists. In that we have a set of beliefs and we are trying, each in our own way, to move our society and governments to be more in sync with those beliefs.

An alternative belief system to mine doesn't automatically make someone evil, although it might suggest they are stupid, depending on their unwillingness to apply logic and reason and to consider alternate viable ideas. While I have come to consider both Hillary and Obama fundamental amoral and evil, that doesn't mean I think all liberals are. And there are plenty of evil conservatives. The Libs don't have a lock on that.

I also put a relatively low emphasis on specifically trying to convert King or Gnomon or anyone else here. But I do want to hear from them. I want to understand their position, flawed as it may be. I want to prod them into spilling the beans on how they came to have such hypocritical and wrong headed views. Because perhaps, somewhere in there, may be the seeds of an effective counter to their foolishness. Like a scientist looking for a cure to a devastating disease, we don't know yet where the cure will come from, but it WILL come from studying them. From learning from them. And learning to counter them. So far we have not.

If you think that with regard to first and second amendment rights, there are millions sitting on the fence, I would say you are wrong. My experience tells me there are people who belive in free speech, property rights and responsibility for self and there are those who don't. There is very little middle ground. So I don't believe there are untold millions sitting on the fence waiting to fall onto our side. There is us and them. It's a battle. We are losing, as you acknowledge, in the long term creeping liberalism of our society.

But at the same time, I don't slavish value everything the way it was. I don't think much of systemic discrimination against any racial group. Or women. Or gays. I'd like to see a true democratic/capitalist society and culture where we are judged for who we are and how we behave as individuals. I'd like one where what laws we have are applied equally to everyone.

So sometimes, while a certain subject may be for a time a hobby horse for the left, I may see true value in it for society as a whole. Despite who may be championing it at the moment.

Really THOUSANDS OF YEARS of gay marriage...and gay futtbucking as being normal.... outside of Greece and Sparta (which no longer exists)....exactly where would that be exactly? Non Islamic nations I mean.....we all know no boys butt (or sheeps or goats) is safe when a Muslim man is arround. Despite what their religion thinks about it


I seem to remember gays being used as furnace fuel in Germany not all that awefully long ago alongside Jews, Gypsies and the mentally deficient....with the help of other European nations.

Somehow the people I work for are able to block cookies for this site and started to a few weeks ago...last time it was just a corrupted cookie on ONE machine that kept me from logging in....

Does the same thing on three different machines now....so its not a fluke.

Keeps booting my out claiming I am usung the wrong password for the user ID....when I'm not....as it works fine from home where I am now.

BDH, I said "the practice of homosexuality". Not gay marriage. We haven't had thousands of years of hetero marriage as we understand it today. But as you point out, homosexual relationships were common practice in Rome, among Greeks and Middle Easterners for a very long time. So despite denying it, I guess you're making my point.

I also didn't say it was "normal" as in practiced by a significant minority or majority of a culture. But it has been there and it's been consistent in it's presence. But why let facts get in the way of a good, prejudicial rant.

Furnace fuel....I don't get your point unless it is to also confirm my assertion that gays have often been persecuted violently.

BDH, here you go. Just a small sampling from Wikipedia

E. E. Evans-Pritchard recorded that male Azande warriors in the northern Congo routinely took on young male lovers between the ages of twelve and twenty, who helped with household tasks and participated in intercrural sex with their older husbands. The practice had died out by the early 20th century, after Europeans had gained control of African countries, but was recounted to Evans-Pritchard by the elders to whom he spoke.[9]

The first recorded homosexual couple in history is commonly regarded as Khnumhotep and Niankhkhnum, an Egyptian male couple, who lived around the 2400 BCE. The pair are portrayed in a nose-kissing position, the most intimate pose in Egyptian art, surrounded by what appear to be their heirs and wives.

Among indigenous peoples of the Americas prior to European colonization, a common form of same-sex sexuality centered around the figure of the Two-Spirit individual. Typically this individual was recognized early in life, given a choice by the parents to follow the path and, if the child accepted the role, raised in the appropriate manner, learning the customs of the gender it had chosen. Two-Spirit individuals were commonly shamans, and were revered as having powers beyond those of ordinary shamans. Their sexual life was with the ordinary tribe members of the same sex.

Homosexual and transgender individuals were also common among other pre-conquest civilizations in Latin America, such as thellohe Aztecs, Mayans, Quechuas, Moches, Zapotecs, and the Tupinambá of Brazil.

The Spanish conquerors were horrified to discover sodomy openly practiced among native peoples, and attempted to crush it out by subjecting the berdaches (as the Spanish called them) under their rule to severe penalties, including public execution, burning and being torn to pieces by dogs

In East Asia, same-sex love has been referred to since the earliest recorded history.

Homosexuality in China, known as the pleasures of the bitten peach, the cut sleeve, or the southern custom, has been recorded since approximately 600 BCE.

Homosexuality in Japan, variously known as shudo or nanshoku, has been documented for over one thousand years and had some connections to the Buddhist monastic life and the samurai tradition. This same-sex love culture gave rise to strong traditions of painting and literature documenting and celebrating such relationships.

Similarly, in Thailand, Kathoey, or "ladyboys," have been a feature of Thai society for many centuries, and Thai kings had male as well as female lovers. While Kathoey may encompass simple effeminacy or transvestism, it most commonly is treated in Thai culture as a third gender. They are generally accepted by society, and Thailand has never had legal prohibitions against homosexuality or homosexual behavior.

In Persia homosexuality and homoerotic expressions were tolerated in numerous public places, from monasteries and seminaries to taverns, military camps, bathhouses, and coffee houses. In the early Safavid era (1501–1723), male houses of prostitution (amrad khane) were legally recognized and paid taxes. Persian poets, such as Sa’di (d. 1291), Hafiz (d. 1389), and Jami (d. 1492), wrote poems replete with homoerotic allusions. The two most commonly documented forms were commercial sex with transgender young males or males enacting transgender roles exemplified by the köçeks and the bacchás, and Sufi spiritual practices in which the practitioner admired the form of a beautiful boy in order to enter ecstatic states and glimpse the beauty of god.

Think the ovens at the concentration camps....and you'll understand my furnace fuel remark.

That proves what exactly? Nobody said freaks didn't exist....I said freaks weren't getting married for thousands of years.....Marriage has always been about a man AND a woman...nothing else. THats what I was talking about....we haven't had that rammed down our throats throughout recorded history....

And those cultures that liked to play hide the sausage? We see where they are all at these days.

BHD, I guess I'm trying to determine if you think putting the gays along with the Jews and Gypsys into the ovens was a good thing or a bad thing.

Marriage has not and is not always about a man and a woman. Often it is about one man and several to many women. In some places it has been about one woman and several men.

Instead of demonstrating your ignorance on these subjects, why don't you do a little research before you make pronouncements like "Marriage has always been about a man AND a woman...nothing else".


As to what the excerpt from Wikipedia proves? Only that you know very little about what you are talking about. That's all.

Like I said before, your posts are liberal caricatures of what it means to be right wing. Maybe you're one of the fifth columnists.

Really..you post bullshit like Wikipedia is accurate all the time...that shows how little you know about things..or since you chose to throw those words my way first....it shows YOUR ignorance on many things.

Its wrong quite often because its run by a bunch of regular people few of whom are experts in anything....I know several "editors"...I wouldn't trust their knowledge or judgement on very much at all.

Do you really believe all the bullshit you post all the time? Really,do you?

As far as the gays go...I don't give a shit what they do as long as they do it behind closed doors.

It doesn't have any place in public..and far less being rubbed in NORMAL peoples faces...

Gay isn't normal any more than serious birth defects are normal....they happen..they are anomalies..but they are far from normal.

What is your personal investment in the Gay community, and gay lifestyle anyway?

Marriage is a Religious institution that dates back into the old testament era....crack it the Bible or the Jewish Torah open sometime and take a read what it has to say about gays.....and gay marriage.

As far as what some middle eastern troglodytes do....who gives a damn...they screw children, farm animals and relatives....they worship a pedophile and murderer, that speaks volumes about that culture....and why they are stuck in the 7th century.

As far as the rest...just take a look at where they are today....basically third world status....hardly anything to be proud of.

Homosexuality is an aberration period!!
Jim

What's my personal investment? I get annoyed by fools, that's all.

You can't read, you can't write and you sure can't put a cogent, logical argument together. What you can do however is spill bile. Good for you. Way to move the cause forward.

You didn't answer my question about your oven remark. So should I go in the direction the rest of your invective suggests and assume you were in favour of the oven?

Homosexuality is an aberration period!!
Jim

Sorry Jim, my previous post was not directed at you. Was directed at BDH. Yours slipped in while I was typing.

Canvasback made a point somewhere in this thread to the effect that all of us have some family connection to homosexuality or one of the other alphabet sexual aberrations. He was probably right. What that connection might be is no one's business unless a member wishes to share. Asking is out of line IMHO....Geo

Thanks George, but I'm fine. Don't need defence although I appreciate it. Seems to be a bit of an unfair fight. Lol

BHD, I'm still waiting for you to explain how NAMBLA is going to get men corn holing boys legalized while women screwing boys continues to be a prosecuted crime.

Waiting.........

James, I grabbed a few points from your reply to my earlier post (above) and wanted to counter:

I can agree that an alternate belief system does not automatically make someone evil, but we have seen right here the same evil that you see in Barack Obama or Hillary Clinton. There is the willingness and glee in practicing extreme dishonesty... repeating it in the face of proof positive to the contrary... and totally ignoring that proof. And there are extremes even within those extremists. Dave-in-Maine actually pretended to be pro-Second Amendment last year until I confronted him with his staunch support of Obama. He repeatedly denied that support of Obama for several posts... swore up and down he was not an Obama supporter... until I quoted him in his own words. Then he all but disappeared. King is at the other end of the spectrum in that you can quote his LULLING nonsense and concessionary advice after Newtown, and he acts like it never happened. Like your evil Obama, he either pretends he never said something, or looks for some tiny loophole to squeeze through to explain his dishonest position. On the subject of gun control after Newtown, he actually claims that his was the true and correct position when nothing could be further from the truth.

Then you have the extreme lying filthy slime nca225 recently taking me to task for engaging and confronting King, simply because he is 80+ years old. That's nothing more than a Libtards dishonest attempt to silence the opposition and quell debate which runs counter to their agenda. King and I aren't arm wrestling or cage fighting. I suspect that King at 80+ years old would do much much better at arm wrestling than the limp wristed gay wedding planner nca225. This is a battle of wits and words we engage in. King was a paid "professional" while we are just amateurs. I am simply not discriminating against him just because of his advanced age. Where I am not "playing fair" in his eyes is simply taking note of dishonesty, hypocrisy, and a total refusal to accept proof that runs counter to his Liberal positions. Ask him for "proof" of the so-called "Bush Doctrine" he quoted today in another thread to justify Putin's moves into the Ukraine. He won't because he can't. The "Bush Doctrine" that Liberals are fond of quoting is an invention and a mish-mash of cherry picked words. You think you can change that behavior or learn something from it. You can't. It is what it is... a game where he makes the rules and only you and I are expected to follow them... nothing more. He wouldn't be pretending to ignore me if he had any ammunition and he realizes that I'm on to his game and won't play. Age has nothing to do with it.

The guys like King really seem to take heart when you or someone else makes the mistake (in my opinion) of engaging them in a discussion. You, or anyone else, has never succeeded in pinning him down during the many times he posts absolute false information. Recently he did actually say to you that you got him on a particular point, but he quickly went back to the original position you had corrected him on. Entrenched! Agenda driven! He is not here to debate or learn or grow... he is here to indoctrinate through the steady drumbeat of Socialist Progressive dogma. You want to perhaps learn how he works and what makes him tick? I just told you. And when some Libtard uses their free speech to tear down the bedrock principles which built this nation and made it strong and successful, it's not much different than yelling fire in a crowded theatre. Giving them a podium and the slightest hint that you may value their opinion is akin to giving matches to an arsonist.

I strongly disagree with your idea that there are not millions sitting on the fence on gun control or other issues. Many may have a staunch position if you stopped them on the street to ask a poll question, but the problem is in making them understand how serious that position really is. Four million registered Republicans stayed home in 2012 and allowed Obama to have a second term, (along with widespread voter fraud). Four million! Many of them are the guys who are bitching about the price and availability of ammo since Obama won. Other complainers are those who voted Democrat in a habitual kneejerk manner without taking the time to learn his real position on guns. But then again, you had LULLERS and flat out liars telling them here there and everywhere that Obama was no threat to gun rights. For many years, between 1 and 3 million NRA members have been doing the heavy lifting for 40+ million gun owners. Millions are sitting on the fence or on their ass on election day because they are LULLED or lied to.

We will never get them to the polls if we lend a shred of credence to the opinions of idiots like anti-gun troll nca225 who advances the position of the anti-gunners that there is no individual right to keep and bear arms simply because there is no formal everyday practicing Militia. But the anti-gunners, and anti-gun trolls we have here like nca225 like to look for the smallest loophole or weakness in the Second Amendment while totally ignoring the Ninth Amendment which guarantees us those rights not enumerated in the Constitution... such as the God given right to self defense, which predates the Constitution and even the Magna Carta by tens of thousands of years. There is a reason why King keeps pounding the keyboard in Misfires, and there is a reason why filthy nca225 has come slithering back... and it has nothing to do with a civil discussion about doubleguns.

You have been our "canary in the coal mine" James. You've been there time and time again to warn us about the creeping loss of individual freedom that comes from Liberalism and Socialism. I just want to remind you that you will never train a rattlesnake not to bite you. And you won't learn a thing from taking your foot off of his neck except that he will sieze the opportunity to bite you.

Not particularly defending you Can, you're doing just fine. Just posting my opinion...Geo

Not James, me. And I'm with him. He chose tolerance over prejudice.

No. 359583: "I doubt there are any here without a LGTB member in their near or extended families."

King, are you telling us that you are related to nca225?

Look at the festering rectum talk....I suppose you worship Dudly DooRight..dontcha. Hey buttmunch..how about taking a look in the mirror because I haven't been an as s shole towards ANYONE here, much less you since I joined...but you had to open that can of worms for no fukin reason. So how about getting stuffed. I bet you like that...

Talk about self righteous blohards.

I Guess that Polar Vortex froze a lot of peoples brain cells up there apparently, or at least in your part of the great white north.


And about the ovens comment...its apparent you can't read or comprehend much...because I posted an answer to that yesterday.

Or are you one of those morons that believe in revisionist history, or worse....one of those Holocaust deniers?

BDH, I didn't open it for no reason. I opened it because you made idiotic connections between gay marriage and NAMBLA. I opened it because you regularly post hate filled, ridiculous statements. Because with your over the top racist and homophobic rants, you make us look bad by association.

NAMBLA
CORNHOLING
BUTTMUNCHING
FESTERING RECTUM TALK

You seem to think, I guess because you can't comprehend what you are reading, that because I correct you about the reality of homosexual behavior, that somehow that means I'm involved in it or am advocating for it. What I'm doing is correcting willful stupidity.

And BTW, you never did clarify your position on the ovens. But you can probably go back now and edit one of your posts to make it look like you did.

Really...You must be an authority on idiots being one yourself.

YOu are so full of shit you make a waste treatment center look like a clean room.

Where do you pull this shit from anyway.....your ass can't possible hold that much.

You might enjoy gay sex...but I don't...and most straight people don't....in fact only a freak feels the need to rub that perversion in other peoples faces.... You don't see most straight people doing it....

You must be fukin dumb look back through to posts.....its there....in fact I Quoted your specific question on that.

You did study the Second World War and in particular the concentration camps in what passes for schools where you grew up...didn't you. My answer to that was pretty clear....

Only an [censored] would even make that comment.....because if you was more of a man and less of a dick you would see when and exactly what time a post is editied, I'm sure you've noticed that on the bottom of the post...EVERYTIME someone edits something.... I really don't have a need to do that.....because I'm not a revisionist.....you on the other hand like most libtards frequently do things like that every time you get caught with some dick up you butt.


Or are you not smart enough to find it yourself?

Still waiting.....Maybe it's you who's the blohard, as you like to spell it. LOL

Read their pamplets...you are a member of that group...aren't you? All lefties like sucking on a hard one.

Boyfriend not giving you any since your hemroids flared up?

Here's what you originally said about the ovens. Fairly ambiguous.

Here's your follow up, also ambiguous.

Not to anyone that knows ANYTHING about the concentration camps, and what happened in many of them.

Or didn't they teach that in Canada?

BDH, like any good leftist, when you can't follow the logic, get past your own myopic view of the world or just fail to comprehend what's going on, you attempt to slander your opponent into submission. You're an embarrassment.

May be ambiguous to you.....the rest of us know what happened in the Concetration camps. Look it up...its not my fault the Canadian School system apparently left out important things that happened in world history, particularly in WW2. Considering they didn't sit that war out.

BDH You are attempting, in the discussion about the ovens, to weasel out of the insinuation you originally made, by now accusing me of it.

Hey as shole....YOU are the mental midget that started this sh it by slandering me....if you don't have balls big enough to take it...then you should have kept your mouth shut to begin with.

You share a lot in common with Obama....tiny little balls....microscopic dick...no spine....and neither of you are man enough to own up to what you start or do.

ASSHOLES start things then blame others.....wusses do too....which of those do you consider yourself.....or maybe its both of them.

Don't worry...I don't need to edit past posts to remove anything....besides....if you go crying to Dave ...he can see the orginial contents of the posts.......every action someone takes remain in logs on the site software.

Even if you delete something....the powers that be can see what was there before it was edited.

I've created sites...admined one...and moderated a few others...I know exactly what can be called up and who can do it.

So grow up...you called me ignorant...several times before I said one fukin thing to you in return. Stop acting like a baby.

I know its hard for you.....but give it a little thought, even if it gives you a headache to think.

Even Mentally challenged people can grasp what happened in the concentration camps.

Or is it even the mentally challenged people in the USA are smarter than the average Canadian?

BDH, seems I have struck a nerve. You seem to think I am cowering up here in the cold when in fact I'm chuckling at how with every post you confirm my assessment of you.

As far as owning up goes, try reading post #359933 again. I was pretty clear about why I started down this path with you. Reading comprehension please!

You still haven't clarified your position on the gays and the ovens. We all know what happened in the camps, BDH, me likely better than you seeing as I have known many people who were in them. Who had the tattoos on their arms to prove it, not that they needed to. The question has always been, since you raised the subject, were you admiring the Nazis treatment of gays? To use one of Keith's favorite lines, you've just danced away from that question.

That's great to hear you created sites, even administered them. Kudos to you, pal. Nice resume. But it's you who brings up the idea of running to Dave. It hadn't even crossed my mind. Besides, I suggested you may add to your previous posts, not delete anything. Again with the comprehension. Try to read the words all the way through before getting apoplectic.

Every hear of transference? You seem to be knee deep in it. Maybe you're like one of those good Christian ministers, railing against the evils of homosexuals while you are orally pleasuring strangers in airport washrooms. I don't know but you sure seem to have anger issues, with me and a whole lot of other folks.

James:

I think you are wrong here and need to apologize to Bones.

Exactly WHAT CAUSE ARE YOU TRYING TO MOVE FORWARD JAMES....?

You began the negativity by calling Bones ignorant and a fool, then you didn't like the retaliation....what did you expect....?

You have admitted on this board that you are an atheist and therefore in my opinion cannot debate queers and lesbians on the same playing field as a Christian or an individual who believes in God and does not believe in demented homosexual behavior, public or private, in any country. There is nothing to debate.....

You are a tolerant individual and evidently wish to tolerate this demented homosexual behavior....?....Many do not wish to tolerate this behavior, public or private....it is demented and dispicable and unnatural, plain and simple.

You have admitted on this board that you have family and or friends of the queer persuasion and you wish to stay friends and tolerate them, this is your choice, so be it.

BTW, for you, King Brown and Geo Newbern, there have not been any queers in my family back to at least 1620 when they arrived in North America, and our family has all the detailed geneology to prove it.

You wish to debate, but in this case you sir, are way way off base and started the rudeness, name calling and spelling call outs.

You tried to call out J.R.B. on this thread with your posts mentioning not understanding his disgust with queers in a public place. What part of that experience do you not understand, you want dripping details or what...?.....

Best,

canvasback You've proven with every post what an as shole you are....

You are clearly STUPID if you don't see what that means....its obvious to everyone else....

Any buttwipe that out of the blue pulls the shit with someone who has never said ONE word abusive to ANYONE on this site....WITHOUT CAUSE...LIKE YOU DID isn't above running to Dave.

Libtards do that anytime they bite off more than they can chew....none of them are adult enough to take what they want to dish out. And that's true worldwide.

I don't have to explain anything to you....what I said was clear....if you can't grasp it...then you aren't smart enough to understand..and I'm not going to waste my time trying.

I don't believe in editing posts once they fall back beyond a few from the current...except to correct a spelling are grammatical error...otherwise people following the thread won't see anything that's changed if they already read it.

Funny how a self proclaimed atheist thinks he's such an expert on the worlds religions.. A topic they really can't grasp.

Since Morality is based in religion..people that reject religion really reject most forms of morality.

You seem to have a lot of experience orally pleasuring strangers in airport restrooms....

I've been in a LOT of airports in a lot of countries on the dozens of trips I've taken internationally and domestically the last 30 years.

You got to be a pro at it if you can pull that off...because I've never noticed it happen in any of them, and as busy as they all were and the way they are laid out.

I don't have anger issues....I have issues with as sholes that disrespect me. You disrespected me for no reason at all.

And the proof is as an example while I might not agree with King on many things....I appreciate the fact he has remained respectful towards me. I have no ill feelings towards him at all..he might be as stubborn as I am...but I can appreciate having a disagreement while keeping a cool head or anyone else that might not agree with me, if it remains respectful.

And trust me....you haven't seen me angry yet....I've just been giving back what was thrown my way...because if ANYONE dishes it out to be....they can expect to get it back.

I've gone head to head with Site admins before.....not just mods...and won the war...before it was over they almost lost the site entirely, don't take my word on it, ask JRB about that....he saw the whole thing happen. He was there too.

It lasted over 5 years, closer to 6 actually...and it ended when the offending Site admin and owner appologized to me, and asked me to return after reinstating my account....and the Mod who started it all got stripped of his credentials.

I was angry then. But unlike a libtard....despite having every reason to hold a grudge....I no longer do in that case. Because I'm man enough to accept an appology from a person who did me wrong in a major way.

James you started this whole bunch of bull$hit yourself. Then you dragged my name in the fracas a few pages back. You damn right I'm still offended at what those two queers were doing in public in front of my girlfriend when we were on a date. It sure is funny they were the only ones there engaged in disgusting behavior. It wasn't the Christian straight people. You owe several people here an apology.

JRB and Doug, I'll consider what you both have said because I respect both of your opinions. I'm not above making a mistake now and again. So I'm going to sleep on it. I'll read through this thread again from the start in the morning and re-consider both my position and the words I have chosen to use. But as you are probably both aware from my previous history here, I didn't embark down this road with BDH on a momentary whim, or because I'd had a few too many scotch and said something I didn't mean to say.

BDH, where do you get the idea I am having difficulty with what you think you have been dishing out? That theme has run through your last few posts as though you think I started something and am now crying uncle in the face of the amazing onslaught from you. You calling me queer or a butt muncher or whatever is like water off a duck's back. It's meaningless, particularly here. I'm interested in what you have to say, not the names you can call me.

Technical question here. How does one pluck quotes from multiple posts and get them all in the same new post?

Easiest way to do it is to open a Microsoft Word document. Then press the "Quote" button on the first post you want to quote. Select and copy that text and paste it onto the Word document. Then "Quote" the next post, select and copy that text, and paste it on to the Word document. And so on and so on. Then select and copy the text on the Word document and paste it into the box here.

That is one of several ways to do it.

Holding down the "Alt" key and then pressing the "Tab" key will allow you to toggle back and forth between your browser and your word document after you have gone from one to the other for at least one cycle.

Clear as mud I am sure.

Thanks Mike.

James, not for me to say, but it's clear what's going on here. A detailed rebuttal isn't necessary. We're all known to each other. I admire your fairness.

James:

I see you pulling up all your desired posts, so I thought I would throw this in there before you put it all together. I'm sorry you are dragging this thread way beyond where it needs to go IMO.




You start here and continue to wind it up, King follows up with more negative b.s., then you tell us how your sales experience makes you a master intellectual and personality changer......



Then King jumps in with absolute bunk.....

Absolute b.s., and you take the bait and run with it acting like the program host of this thread.



Keith brings up a fact or two after you tell the board about your dinner party and the discussion that ensues, which has no bearing on anything here.



Then you include condescending chatter in one of your rants which is not factual and is based only on your opinions and you guys are off to the races.

I could go on and on quoting all the verbal exchanges that soon followed, but you and everybody else already know the result. All of this started on page three (3) and spiraled into your negative exchange with Bones.

You really need to lighten up IMO, being an orator does not include Wikipedia quotes BTW IMO......all of which is posted by self interested people and slanted in their direction.

Everybody has a different way of expressing themselves and one is not better than the other.

Queers don't by guns and belong to the NRA, they are not your average deer hunter or safari student.....just the way it is.

Best,

Doug, there's a collision here of no winners. There are multiple and competing interpretations of the world. We're entitled to our beliefs. You believe there have been no gays in your family for nearly 400 years. The mayor of Sochi says there's no gays in Sochi. I believe the gay percentage of the population indicates that everyone most likely has a member in the LGTB family.

You believe in literal interpretation of the Bible. The Pope says who is he to judge? You don't like to be around gays. I don't know how many are around me but those I do know who share my interests---hunting and fishing and flying--are as trustworthy and as good company as any of my friends.

Where things get off track is when we lack vocabulary, ability to express ourselves properly and resort to careless and abusive language, beyond what passes for civil in our communities, surpassing injunctions of the Commandments. We'd all be better off if we ignored them.

I believe everyone here would apologize for dismeanours if they thought it would put a stop to it. Singling one person out to apologize in a cesspool of rudeness and foul language, however, is a bit much.

It has been suggested by Doug and JRB that I owe BHD an apology. JRB also has suggested I owe him an apology for referencing a personal anecdote he posted here in Misfires several months ago. This will be lengthy but I will do my best to address these issues. I will respond to JRB in a separate post.

I have reprinted in this post the entire conversation between BHD and myself, editing only to remove quoted previous posts for the sake of brevity. The context of each post to the overall conversation is fairly obvious with all the previous posts evident. There are a couple where I have left the quotes in for the sake of clarity.

But if you don’t want to be bored, just skip to the end for my conclusion.







BHD has made what I consider to be a foolish statement. So I respond and point out exactly why it's foolish. His statement was foolish. I did not say BDH was foolish. I follow that with an exhortation that we all post sensible comments, not ones that make us look like fools. IMHO engaging in supportive dialogue with someone who posted the original post re:NAMBLA makes me look like a fool. I haven't insulted BDH, I've suggested his posts were ill considered.










BHD then makes another post with some absolutely erroneous statements about what has constituted marriage. He also brings up drug legalization to bolster his point?? I point out his assessment of the history of marriage is incorrect and that he might want to consider if his prescription for the drug issue in NA is effective. I ask him to prove his point regarding NAMBLA or take mine apart. Based on his responses so far I suggest he isn't thinking about these issues hard enough and suggest he could do better.








BDH now rants about gays, Muslims and implies, to my way of thinking, that gassing gays in WWII was okay because they were gay. He also misquotes me which I correct.











I ask for clarification about the oven remark and get nothing. I also made a post here that was a direct quote from Wikipedia detailing just some of the historical incidences of homosexual behavior to counter BDH's erroneous claim that it doesn't happen.

BDH makes another erroneous statement about what constitutes marriage and I correct him again. This time I suggest he do a little research before blurting out incorrect statements. I then describe his posts (not him) as caricatures.










Now, despite evidence I’ve posted to the contrary, BDH describes my posts as bullshit and makes a personal insinuation about my sexual preferences. So I respond by pointing out he hasn’t said anything yet that is logical or evidence based. That he has just ranted.

Doug, my comment here about moving the cause forward was about the conservative movement, and it was based on the idea that as a conservative, BDH isn’t helping that cause much with his emotion based rants.








Now, in between slandering me personally, BDH asks why we are in this, what was my point in starting in on him. So I respond specifically by pointing out why. I suggest that BDH is not reading or comprehending my posts. And I point out he has dodged my question about the ovens.








More slander form BDH while I ask again about his oven comment and suggest that perhaps he is mistaken about which of us is the blowhard.






More slander from BDH
















In this group I try again to get him to specifically respond to my question regarding his ovens comment. This time he just dodges it.









More dodging. And more me responding to his dodge.















The conversation closes with more slander and invective from BDH and I respond by pointing out both how he has not comprehended what has been written and how he has avoided answering the question of his view of the Nazis treatment of homosexuals.

I also object to his inference I am about to run to Dave to complain….a figment of BDH’s imagination. And here is where I make the first slanderous personal insinuation about BDH.


Doug, your post is wrong. I didn’t call BDH ignorant or a fool to start this. I said his post was idiotic and makes us all look foolish. There actually is a difference I was referring to his writing, calling it into question and backing up my position. It’s BDH who started getting personal.

Whether I’m a Christian or an atheist has nothing to do with this conversation because at the heart of it, I have not been defending homosexuality. I have been defending the idea that we use facts in our discussions. BDH kept saying incorrect things and didn’t like it when I pointed that out. Funny how we don’t mind it when we point out the absence of facts when it’s a liberal. I’m not keen on hypocrisy.

You haven’t liked it when I pointed it out because you are both confusing my effort to have facts here with supporting or advocating the gay lifestyle.

Doug, just saw your follow up post. It is primarily opinion, skewed to make/support your position. It also takes some liberties with what I actually said.

We are all entitled to our opinions. No problem. I have 'em, you have 'em and so does BHD. And you are both entitled and welcome to respond to my opinions when I post them here. That's why I do it. To share and to hear feedback.

But if you, me, King, Keith, BDH or anyone else blurts out misinformation or denies commonly accepted fact, then any of us are also entitled to make an effort to set the record straight. Sorry if you don't see it that way.

King;

There are no winners on a thread like this, opinions and feelings are just that....opinions and feelings.

This type of a thread has re-played here many times and the results are always the same, it escalates until feelings are hurt and people get mad.

James is a smart guy, and I am not taking sides, but he opened himself up as he has been involved in the same discussions about queers here before .... (what they've been called for thousands of years, not the new generation self appointed labeling)....on previous threads with similar results.

I do not understand him following the same path once again knowing in advance the brick wall that it will soon find.

As I said above, this subject is NOT debatable, there is no common ground based on your beliefs. Queers should have stayed in the closet where they historically have been in modern civilized Christian-Judeo society. The Muslims have their own approach to the problem.

Queer parades in public places, adoption practices by same sex couples are all very negative practices as viewed by the majority of the planets population. I am sure you disagree but the numbers prove this to be correct.

Best,

JRB, several months ago you shared an anecdote here. You also shared some opinions here regarding that experience. You made it public.

I was responding to Keith and used your anecdote to emphasis my point. No effort to call you out. No slight intended. I was using what I took to be public information.

If you feel offended or I misinterpreted anything about what you shared, I apologize unreservedly. And if it's what you would prefer, I'll never reference that anecdote again.

For the record, because it seems to be the cause of some speculation here, I had a relative, a cousin who lived in Europe, who I saw three times in my life, who died from AIDS in the mid 1980's. That is, to my knowledge, the extent of gay in my extended family.

I have no personal friends who I know to be gay. 35 years ago, when I worked in a restaurant in my late teens and early twenties, there were a couple gay guys who also worked there. They were the closest to what I might call having gay friends. I have not seen or heard from either of them since I left the job and town in 1981.

Like all of us, I am sure I have some acquaintances who are gay, either through my work or in some kind of distant social way. I make no effort to be close to them or not to be close because they are gay. However, I do find, given my personality, my political outlook and my hobbies and past times, that I am not drawn to gays and likely they are not drawn to me.

That is the extent of my involvement or interest in the gay lifestyle.

Gays in public places isn't an issue, parading or otherwise. It's a constitutional right, not seen as a negative in the West, certainly not in Europe. The US now is grappling with sexual orientation long after other societies found accommodation. The trend is toward accommodation.

Canadians aren't much different from Americans but their gay politicians federally and provincially are contributing significantly to the country. A Nova Scotia MP, one of the most influential in Parliament, and his partner just adopted twins. Others are mayors running cities better than straights before them.

To say homosexuality etc is not debatable is unreasonable by any standard of human values. The fact that there are multiple interpretations of reality---and we encounter them in literal and Internet ravings---doesn't threaten the idea that true interpretations are those that say how things are really are.

You can say there have been no gays in your family, ever. Genealogical records couldn't prove it. Procreation isn't evidence of no homosexuality or bisexuality. I have no quarrel with your believing it's so---we all believe in something-but to say it's not debatable leaves out a critical element of establishing reality.

I agree we should guard against getting into wrangles where deeply held beliefs and rights clash interminably. Dave had the good sense to put us in a corner to "knock ourselves out," knowing there would be no consensus on these sexual issues in our times. Thanks for your help, Doug.

Canvassback...your idiotic rant has proven to most of us here you must be a ranking member of Nambla...possibly even its founder.

You are probably gay yourself. Its clear you attended special education because you are clearly a halfwit...who thinks they can go off offending people and then crying like a little girl when they call you out. And you probably have suffered from erectile dysfunction most of your adult life.

I wouldn't even be surprised after your incessant rude comments and your incapacity to admit what a fukin tool you are for acting like an ass for absolutely no reason whatsoever.

Anyone that has such an total fascination with fags and dykes clearly isn't heterosexual themselves....and its obvious you are about the absolute LEAST tolerant person that is a member of this forum. Everything is your way..or its no way.
In fact if I came across you on the side of the road on fire....I wouldn't take the time to whip my dick out to piss on you to put it out. I'd go to the next gas station and hurry back to pour a can of fuel on the fire.

Why is that....I have absolutely no use for ignorant pricks who pick a fight by calling people names FOR NO FUKIN reason....then acting like a little baby and refusing to admit it.

So lets hope that tiny little dick you have rats and falls off because I have yet to see one single word of apology for your unprovoked rude comments directed at me.

But then ..self righteous pricks never apologize for anything do they....you probably masturbate to a picture of Obama ever night....don't you?

You have continuously proven what a total twat you are....your parents must be ashamed they ever had you.

And talking about facts? Exactly who appointed you an expert on anything? Did you even graduate high school...

I am the ONE person who has a right to be offended here....no0t you...exactly where do you think YOU have ANY right to pretend to be offended AFTER someone proves what a simple minded twat you are when you offend them multiple times in a single post...then continue to act like a twit.

Hate to bust your bubble...but libtards are the lowest form of life on the planet.


Everyone can go back and read your rude remarks towards me....everyone has seen them.

I am entitled and have a right to respond when twits with tiny little pricks like you insult me..over and over.


It obvious to all you are the biggest as shole that has ever posted on this forum. And the least knowledgeable.

So really Doug, I'm supposed to apologize to this guy? Talk about losing control? This is hilarious.

The world cries out for such as Boneheaddoctor: He is needed, and needed badly-the man who can carry the message to everyone.

Cavasback...suck my dick.....That's figurative because I'm not a fag, though I'm certain you would enjoy it....

Just as a refresher...I am owed one fukin big appology from the canadian twat because he started this ...







and there are lots more....its shit like THAT which started this.

The Canadian dickwad can either go straight to hell...or I'm going to hound him incessantly until I get the appoligy he OWES me for his unwarranted and unprovoked attack on me and my character. Yeah character...something I have that he doesn't.

And he'll give it if he has a shred of human decency in him....

Which from what I have see...I believe he is completely lacking in it.

Funny thing ....for everyone reading this I didn't hate canvasback at all until he pulled this shit. But he has proven himself to be lower than pond scum with his behaviour.

Well James, you just kept at it like I said and this is what happens when people get pissed, just like I said it would......so who do you blame now.........?





James, you were fore warned and continued to make your point against Bones like you are right and everyone else is wrong here, WELL JAMES you pretty much got just what you kept pushing for........you made your bed in my opinion...don't like it James, then change the sheets.......

BHD, what did I start? Calling you names? Slandering you? Go back and read the posts. Get your facts straight. Character and decency? That's rich coming from you, given your posts on this thread?

Doug's right about one thing. No one wins this game. We all get dirty when we are down in the gutter.

Doug, you ask who do I blame for this? I blame BHD. He posted bullshit and he didn't take kindly to being corrected. BDH started by posting idiotic statements about pedophiles, which if he knew anything, he'd know that homosexuality is not one of their defining characteristics. Not once did I suggest anything to BHD or anyone else here about changing one's views on homosexuality. Not once did I advocate for it. I simply corrected BDH on his blatantly incorrect statements about the history of it and the history of marriage.

It is deceptive and false to pretend this argument is about my supposed tolerance for gays or that I was the one who slandered initially.

The general consensus here is that King often posts erroneous and or outright deceptive statements about politics. We regularly correct him on it and, given his determination to post more of what is considered to be the same tripe, he often gets corrected in a rather brutal manner.

Tell me, how is this different? BDH took offense when I pointed out some factual errors and rather than accept the corrections, challenged me with more factual errors. When that didn't work, he started to attack me personally.

Doug, you might have forewarned me about how no one wins this. I might have listened to that because you are right there. But what you did was take sides and suggest I owed BDH an apology.

So I did what I said I would. I carefully read what we both had written, in sequence. I wasn't gentle but I didn't go anywhere near where BDH has gone. I'm completely fine with my conclusion.

Sometimes I wish I had never started a thread and this is one of those times!
Jim

Canvasback...you are one arrogant prick if you don't see where YOU went first, everyone else here does.....I only responded to your ignorant comments and attacks on me...

And secondly..like any typical libtard...you fail to recognize your version of the "facts" is frequently wrong, and frequently irrelevant, and often not accepted by the majority.

And contrary to what you seem to believe....you are wrong.

We are not in ancient Greece, Ancient Sparta...some troglodyte country in the middle east OR ancient China and the Mayan, Inca, and Aztec civilizations are long gone.

And incidently..in contemporary culture in those central and south American regions...gay is not currently celibrated...quite the opposite in fact.

We are in the North American Continent, OUR culture is European in Origin, And based on Judao/Christian beliefs.

ALL of those cultures that thought being a fag was a great idea either died out...or is an absolute mess today.

Of course none of that reality means anything to you. Liberals prefer to ignore facts to embrace propaganda.

And I guess you've proven that applies in Canada just like it does here.

Now if you would climb of your fukin high horse...admit to what you did...and apologize to going where you shouldn't have gone.... and show a little bit of that respect your Fellow countryman King Brown is able to present.

I'm a big enough man to figuratively shake hands (being we can't actually do it) and put this behind us if you apologize....but I'm also well known as a stubborn prick when I'm blatantly disrespected who can and will make it a mission that can go on for years just on the principle of it if you don't....don't take my word on it...ask JRB. We've known each other for almost 10 years now. Or do you have the same disrespect towrds him too?

BDH, it's late and I just read this. Going to think about what you have said. But I want to make one thing perfectly clear. There is nothing about any conversation I have had with JRB or anything he has posted that I have seen that would make me be knowingly disrespectful towards him. In this thread I referenced something he'd posted him earlier, he indicated he didn't like it and I apologised without question.

You and I have some issues. We'll work them out, I am confident. JRB has nothing to do with it. I don't know JRB as you might but given how I respect Doug's viewpoint and I know Doug knows and respects JRB, I try to do the same.

Like I said....appologize to me...and as far as I'm concerned the issue at hand here will end at that point. Blanket appology that really only has to apply to whats already been said in this thread...there haven't been any issues on any other thread I am aware of.

Don't appologize and its apparent you want this to continue.

You mentioned where you appologized on one specific issue. Provide me a post # and I'll go look for it...I seemed to have missed it.

I'll dish back anything thats thrown at me that I consider a personal attack...and I'll do it with interest. Thats the way I am. Thats the way I've always been. Thats the way I'll always be.

I don't have issues with people disagreeing with me...I never have. I still don't. And I probibly never will.

Doesn't change the fact I have seen things NOBODY on this site likely has....and if they have...you'd never see it discussed in public. And if they have...the last thing they would do is take ANY TV, Radio, or Newpaper (and we'll toss in internet blogger) simply at their word. They rarely get caught in it..Dan Rather was...but even that was a coverup.

Most people have no concept of how seriously manipulated by the media they are.

The "NEWS" stopped being reported on a long, LONG time ago....what they do now is diseminate propganda and rewrite history to suit their current agenda. I however am not a Snowden...I don't repeat the details and where I learned them from.

JRB knows me as well as ANYONE online does....he'd know me even better if we were not seperated geographicaly as much as we are...I'd love to learn machinist skills from him. I consider him one of my best friends. I also trust him implicitly, something that I can say I do with very few people.

BDH, The apology was directed towards JRB in post #360025

I'm still waiting for the one thats OWED to me.

Canvasback and Boneheaddoctor, I actually had trouble falling asleep last night thinking about what has happened here. When I saw it starting to unfold a few days ago, I decided to just keep my nose out of it and let you guys sort it out. I guess I got a little pissed at both of you when it really spun out of control, and if you stop to think about it, you both know why...

I agree with probably 95% of what you both say. 95% is pretty damn good in anybody's book. And you guys have both been very solid Conservatives, and probably agree with each other 95% of the time too. I'm sure you two don't agree with everything I say. It would be scary if you did. But we're mostly on the same page.

So why am I pissed at you guys? Listen up. I think things started going South when Bone made his NAMBLA example. I did interject there and took the liberty to tell you James that while that example may have been extreme, it wasn't totally off-base. I told you that I was pretty sure that if someone told you 25-30 years ago that they would be teaching your kid in school that it was normal for two guys who engage in anal sex to adopt and raise him, you'd have thought it was crazy. I said some other things that I thought you ought to think about, pertaining to pedophiles often distorting the sexual preferences of their victims, etc. but you never responded. Maybe you missed it. Maybe you latched onto that NAMBLA thing like a pit bulldog, and felt it was so outlandish that you needed to destroy it just to prove that you hold Liberals and Conservatives to the exact same standard. That's OK, but I think you never considered that it was intentionally extreme just to make a point. And I'll bet there are some sick bastards who'd love nothing more than to mainstream NAMBLA.

So Bone, what did you do? Did you take a minute to explain your extreme example? No, you had to go right for the throat. Great... except for one thing... you went full throttle at the wrong target. I never saw you go from zero to totally pissed off so fast. One little problem with that as I see it though. There are some real assh*les here that are way more deserving of such wrath. There's guys here every day who I'm sure you are in almost total disagreement with, yet you expended all that energy on James who shares 95% of the same Conservative DNA as you have.

Seriously, you and I both know James is as straight as an arrow. He was married and has a 10 year old son. And he's been here over and over warning U.S. gunowners how the anti's roll. He told us how his guns were arbitrarily confiscated from him for a time. You didn't really need to throw him under the bus. And he didn't need to try to make you look foolish. We all have bigger fish to fry.

And incidentally James, that son of yours would be better off not being brainwashed in school about "Heather Has Two Mommies", or, "Danny Has Two Daddies", or that all guns are evil. No ten year old needs to have that Liberal poison rammed down their throats either in school or on TV. A little tolerance is one thing, but the all out attempt to mainstream what is unnatural and sinful to most of us clearly wasn't going anywhere with anyone here but the self-same flaming Liberals who try to tear down virtually everything most of us here stand for. You're way too smart for that James. You remember how big that went over last time. Like a fart in church. That had less chance of gaining traction than a Snow Cone franchise in Antarctica.

So... some ancient cultures accepted homosexuality as normal. I can shred that in two short sentences:

1) Some ancient cultures felt human sacrifice was normal and acceptable.

2) Some ancient (and present day) cultures felt cannibalism is normal and acceptable.

Checkmate.

And that's all you needed to say too Bone. No Wikipedia needed. But no... you poured gasoline on a wildfire. And so did you James. And I felt like a jerk for standing by watching my friends burning each other.

And I thought, "what a waste." So much passion, so much energy trying to destroy each other. And so many targets much more deserving. What a waste. We have guys here almost every day who lie and intentionally ignore or distort the truth in order to advance an agenda that is counter to everything you two believe in. We have guys who will repeat over and over that Obama is no threat to our right to own and shoot guns. Yet you... neither of you... ever used half as much passion to dismantle them. Why? Do you understand why I'm pissed?

I thought of two hunters so intent on putting a bullet into a 4 point buck that they didn't see the record book Boone and Crocket trophy 5 yards away. I thought of two bulldogs fiercely biting at each other while the rats they should have grabbed and shook until their necks snapped were looking on and laughing.

And doesn't that go to the heart of one of the tactics the Liberal left uses so deftly to undermine us?... Divide and Conquer. I hope you two think about this. It sounds like James already is. Your move Bone. In this election year, we need you two pulling together. We don't need two of our players tackling each other.

James and Bones,

Keith laid it out for you above, you are both great guys and both void of liberal thought patterns.

You two great guys need to shake hands and move on, the liberals need guidance as they keep falling off of their bicycles.......



Best,

+1 keith and Doug are right.......focus our anger at the liberals till there isn't a one left. Then there will be peace.

I tend to drone on so I'm going to keep this as short as possible.

First, I have had house guests for the weekend, thus my absence while some sensible things were posted.

Secondly, to Keith, Doug and JRB, thank you for your encouragement to grow up and do the right thing. And for reminding us of who the philosophical enemy really is. I know absolutely it's not BDH.

Thirdly, to BDH. I apologize for the pomposity of several of my initial posts following the original mention of NAMBLA. What was pissing me off there was a failure to respond to my original response critical of the NAMBLA comparison. Keith pegged it.

But why I went too far, and WHEN I went too far, was AFTER you said "what's my personal interest?" To me, that was clearly a sly method of calling me a homosexual, while being able to figuratively raise your hands and say "Who me? What did I do?" That is when I switched from calling out the inaccuracies of your posts to getting personal and calling you out.

I think what you did after that was beyond the pale and I believe I am owed an apology from you. But I have no intention of having any further comment about this exchange, unless asked to specifically.

I still believe you, Doug and a few others confuse my posts trying to be historically and socially accurate about the history and psychological nature of homosexuality with advocating it or being okay with how it is currently manifesting itself in OUR society. Or not understanding that the historical path that has led to the remarkable success of our culture is one of heterosexual behavior and the institution of monogamous marriage.

deleted

well done !

the left want nothing more then to have us fight each other while they take this country away.

Here's one lefty who doesn't want you fighting each other, Dave. Common sense says it's hari-kiri. Didn't anyone learn from the last time? The Republicans need two things: a plan and a man or woman. The US will get its mojo back when its puts country first and acts accordingly.

First I made my comments in response to yours....and ONLY because of yours.

I graciously accept your apology canvasback...and as far as I am concerned....anything related to the previous disagreements (or animosity) in this thread....ends at this point, as I have said previously. And I am a man of my word.

(click) Cyber Reset button pressed.

Sorry for not answering sooner. Was busy and didn't get to the site at all.