The First section of 2018 Montana Stockmaking is in full swing with Irl from Helena, MT, Joe from Arlington, Texas and Eric from Columbus, Georgia in attendance. Irl is shaping a .411 wildcat Mauser from the blank, Joe is inletting a 7x57 Mauser into a custom machined stock and Eric is inletting and shaping a Martini Cadet from the blank. All three fellows drove to Livingston, Montana to attend the Seminar.
Here are a few pictures of our accomplishments Mon. through Wed. this week for your enjoyment.
Irl sawing corners of blank for rough shaping.


Eric laying out butt getting ready to shape contours.


Joe, chiseling barrel channel for Mauser.


Walnut chips on the floor.


More later~~~~

Thanks Irl!
Super Liogier rasps~~ Gotta wear a leather glove on the left hand~~
Sure glad that flaw worked out~

Those wanting to get on the list for considering next year, please email me at; sdh@montana.net.
I begin contacts in February so there is plenty of time to make plans.... and let me know what you would like to learn about custom gunmaking, I'm always open to new ideas!

Looks like a lot of fun, and some elbow grease. Can you explain the concave above the grip cap? Is that to help establish a uniform width through the grip area, or just a quick way to get rid of some wood? Not sure I have seen it done this way before.

Thanks,
John

The deep groove rasped from the cap to the top of the wrist determines the finished thickness of the grip and serves as a target depth(thickness) to shape to.
I've got a step-by-step manual for shaping a bolt action rifle stock that is adaptable for shaping most any conventional stock. So yes, John you are correct on both counts.

Irl's series of photo show most of what he accomplished on Wed. including a very worrisome void that did rasp away. It also shows a good view of what I call the "chainsaw" rasp and why it is just the tool for bulk wood removal.

Some think a draw-knife or spoke shave (edge tools) appropriate for stock shaping. They only work properly on certain types of wood grain while a rasp will shape virtually any grain presented.
I'd be glad to field other questions but please remember that the Seminar is five full days, some 50+ hours and it takes the entire time to rough shape a gunstock.

Curious, is the gripcap inletted. If not how do you secure it to prevent rotation. Could you post a picture please.

Fisher cap has two holes on the backside for installing a peg if one is worried about the cap rotating. All photos in process, we are past the grip cap stage.
More pics tomorrow... This is a 5 day Seminar on Stockmaking, come join us next year~~~sdh@finegunmaking.com for information on attending.

Steven,

I am wondering your thoughts on the use of a traditional vise like the one being used in your photos. When i say traditional, i mean one with parallel fixed jaws that then are padded with leather or wood.

There are machinist vises made with one pivoting jaw that allows the holding of a tapered object. And then there are pattern makers vises (which I prefer to use) that have each wood and rubber backed jaw pivoting independently, allowing the holding of pretty much any shape put into it securely. A big help when things start getting fully shaped.

I am surprised when i see photos out of different smith’s shops to see how many are using traditional vises like initially mentioned above. Do you see an actual benefit to that style of vise, or is it just a function of working with what was always available?

I was introduced to Wilton machinist vices at Trinidad State and that is what I have always used. I have bought used Wilton's on ebay as I needed them, rebuilt or repainted them when outfitting a new work station. To me they are the best general purpose vice ever made.

My shop now has 7 Wilton vices (?) from 1 1/2" to 4 1/2". To me they are the finest vices in the world and the most generally useful. I teach other subjects and do other work than stockmaking. I have a large swivel base Kurt vise on the Bridgeport.


I am not aware of any quality swivel jaw vice currently manufactured, nor the pivoting jaw "machinist" vise you mention or the "pattern makers" vise? My Pal Jerry Fisher uses an antique Parker vise with a swivel jaw that must weigh a hundred pounds(?) I bought the 4" Wilton on my workbench new about 30 years ago as a present to myself when I built the workbench it's bolted to. I believe it cost about $300 then.

It seems like we had a very long thread on bench vices here years ago(?)Maybe you might start another and introduce the vice you use? Vices are one of my vises. I've lost track of how many are in my workshop??

Very cool to see guys interested in carving a stock by hand from a blank and just as cool to see an instructor who is passionate about teaching it. Thanks for the pictures and the narratives, Steven.

Craig Libhart

See here an example of the patternmakers vise that i mentioned.

http://www.mprime.com/Emmert/knockoffs.htm

Day 5 of Stockmaking the fellows got lots more accomplished. Eric pretty much finished shaped his Martini except installing the buttplate as there is not enough time in class to do that and shape the stock.






Joe continued patiently inletting his Mauser mainly with small chisels and scrapers.





Irl took off masses of walnut and ebony rounding the forend, shaping the buttstock and blending the two ends towards the middle. Irl had never done any stockwork prior to this class!



Lots of sawdust ended up on the floor!

Four happy fellows after a long week of crafting custom gun stocks!

Steven, a couple months ago, you got your knickers all in a knot over a post about rocky mtn bill's politics appearing in the DIY Gunsmithing forum. You felt it was totally inappropriate, even though Bill frequently posts his political thoughts in the main double shotgun forum.

So please tell us how this annual tradition of selling spots in your stock-making classes is in any way appropriate for this forum? Isn't this intended as a way for you to generate income? It isn't like there is any sharing of useful information going on other than your copyrighted photos. It sure isn't contributing anything pertaining to the intended content of this sub-forum. Shouldn't this kind of thread go in the For Sale section, like when you sell rasps? Or can we expect that you will also sell wood rasps in this forum as well, to further take advantage of Dave?

I know you won't see this since you are ignoring me, but I'll take a shot anyway in the interest of confronting hypocrisy.

I forgot to mention, we drilled the through-bolt hole for the Martini in class. The same way that I always do it, halfway from each end on the lathe. The quarter-flute deep hole drill runs straight and true and when we ran it all the way through the hole was right down the middle with no binding at all.


It came out perfectly and we counter bored it with this bench made, floating pilot counter bore.

It gets a bit tense when drilling so no one thought to get any pictures.
That was the first time we ever drilled a through-bolt hole in class and everyone as impressed. I know I always am!

I also forgot to mention that most of the sawdust was generated using Liogier hand-stitched wood rasps. Made in France, finest kind! They make short work of even the hardest walnut!
Note the gloved hands, These Babies are SHARP!

Keith, since you've brought me up again, I'll chime in to say that Steven's post regarding tools and stock-making classes are precisely what this site is for. If it weren't for people like Steven who teaches the skills involved in making fine guns, that knowledge would become rarer and rarer. If this forum can't tolerate the possibility that full-time gunmakers need to make their skills available, then we really ought to give it up and take up golf. Just the photos from Steven's shop contain a wealth of useful information for anyone with eyes and interest. It's just one more sample of your short-sighted self importance. Face it; no one here gives a shit for your sour pronouncements.

Thanks for the pics Steve and everything else you do for our trade. It does not go un-noticed. Those look like some pleased faces. Great progress too in only a week's time.

Many thanks for the kind words and encouragement. It is much appreciated and I will continue to do what I do to continue advancing quality craftsmanship and awareness of a dwindling trade.
Comments on what you see in the pics is welcome!

Billy, I get (and give) a whole lot more good information from the DIY Gunsmithing forum... FOR FREE... than I do from Steven's self serving no cost advertising he does here for his stock making classes. I already knew about single flute gun drills used for deep hole drilling, and I certainly know about vises. Unlike Steven, I even know the difference between a vise and a vice. And I agree with Brian Dudley about the usefulness of a pattern makers vise with pivoting jaws for holding items with non-parallel surfaces.

You can try once again to read the intended content for this sub-forum... and guess what Billy... free advertising of stock making classes for personal gain ain't in it. Contrary to your plaintive cries, stock making is nowhere near becoming a lost art. And I certainly have no problem with those gunsmiths who freely share advice and information without taking advantage of Dave. My comment was driven by the hypocrisy of Steven making judgements about which topics and posts are appropriate in a particular forum, and then violating his own standards for personal financial gain. But your comments and concern is understandable, considering your habit of launching personal attacks and posting false information in the Double Shotgun forum, and then retreating here to hide under Steven's shop apron.

A much better source of information on stock making that certainly isn't near as costly as these classes is this book. I highly recommend it:

Keith. I have looked at your recent posts and have seen nothing that would make me believe your claim of you posting useful information. Just a recommendation of a book by an author who if I had read any of his internet posts before I bought the book I certainly would not have given him one red cent of my money. Steve has been a contributor to this forum for many years. If some of his information sharing comes in the form of an infomercial, I have no problem with that. I do not view them as selling, as much as just sharing what he is doing which is what this forum is for. He certainly is not going to get rich off the few people that frequent this forum. If you are so concerned about Dave, maybe you should consider whether your posts are bringing more people to his forum, or pushing them away.

John Holliger

Thanks for your comments John. I gave my reason for confronting Stevens hypocrisy and his self serving promotion for personal financial gain. In the interest of fairness, perhaps you should dig a little deeper to see if I have contributed any useful information. A while back, in response to an accusation similar to yours, craigd provided a bunch of links to posts I made that he found helpful and informative. Predictably, the time he spent offering proof fell on deaf ears. You obviously haven't looked very hard. And then you could do the same to see what Steven's little friend Billy contributes when he isn't hiding here in this sub-forum, pretending to be a gun guy:













With your "Gasgunner" screen name, I'd assume you might be partial to semi-auto's. Billy sure isn't, and seldom misses an opportunity to bash them and offer his support for the anti-gunners who wish to ban them:





And here's Billy comparing Buzz's desire to buy an AR-15, before they get banned again, to buying heroin:



And here's one where Billy accused me of lying and also made the ridiculous assertion that an MMC Checkering Tool which runs at 17,000 rpm requires no lubrication for its' tiny gears and bearings. Useful indeed... if your goal is to destroy an expensive precision tool.



But once again... none of this has anything to do with the intended topics for this sub-forum. And I'm pretty sure your mind is made up. Even so, David Westbrook's book "Professional Stockmaking" will provide anyone here a lot more useful information on stock making than anything Steve has shown us here in his free advertisements for his classes. I've read your second sentence several times, and still don't understand what you were saying. But I think it means you like Steven, and disapprove of my responding to his recent attack on me, and because of that, you reject my plug for Westbrook's book. If you are into making gun stocks, that is your loss. But here is what some others have had to say about it. Reprinted in 2011:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=129412&page=1

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/287366/professional-stockmaking-book-by-david-l-wesbrook

Simply put, Keith is an embarrassment and just a brown streak in the underpants of this community. The saddest and most pathetic part about it is that i don’t think he even realizes it.

Que the quotes and attacks...

Thank you John and Brian, but there is no need to defend me.

Unfortunately, the Ignore feature is required on this Forum because the owner insist on non-regulation even in cases that clearly destroy the entire experience. He would rather see this forum destroyed from within that simply give the idiots and trolls the boot that they deserve.

To activate the Ignore feature: Click on the highlighted name, click on View Profile, the look for the Ignore This user and click on that.

Then bask in the relative freedom from idiots and trolls~~~
Responding to the idiots and trolls only gives them reason to continue. They obviously lack in attention and are willing to demean themselves to garner any.

Steve's photos remind me I have been meaning to build a bench horse. I use a free standing support like shown in his pictures for one end of a gun but more ways to hold things is always helpful. I seem to vaguely remember a tip in gunmaker for increasing the usefulness of a standard vise by using a pipe and some custom made wood blocks. I think Dennis Potter wrote about it. I might need to did that up over the holiday, it looked handy.

Hi guys,
I have been a member here for just over seven years and have enjoyed most of the contributions of knowledgeable people who share their knowledge freely and help others who might need advice.

Not personally knowing either of the protagonists involved here, I must say that I enjoy, and learn a lot more useful bits of knowledge and workmanship from Stevens contributions than from the other guy!

It is a pity that these things seem to happen in most forums I have come across - we are supposed to be a group of like-minded people sharing a common interest.
There can always be a disagreement - I have disagreed with a lot of advice which I thought wrong, also people have disagreed with me.
But people (there are two or three here - without naming names) who seem to make it their hobby to cause grief in a group like this should not be tolerated!
They probably have nothing else to do and enjoy (for once) being the center of interest.

It leads to members (like me) losing interest in the forum involved.

Just my two cents from the other side of the pond

Gunter
Rochester, England
Life Member NRA (US) 1974
Certified Pistol Instructor NRA (US) 1981
Life Member British Pistol Club 1976
Founder Member Nat'l Pistol Association (UK) 1979
Centre Fire Pistol Champion Kenya 1975
(before anyone asks: since 1997 we cannot have/shoot handguns in the UK! therefore I have changed over to rifle and shotgun shooting/hunting)

Yes he is. There is something very wrong with him, but I have trouble feeling bad for him.

Why Dave wont fix the problem is beyond me, but he won't get any of my money to support the forums until he does.

No need to dig, Steve and this will free you to do something else on the 4th.

It took less than 5 minutes to find a Steve Nelson article on making a bench rest using the ACGG digital "Gunmaker" archive. I'm not sure this is the one you were thinking about but try:
July/August 1991 page 9. If this is not the one it still is a great solution to the problem of steadying long objects held in a vise.

For those of you that don't know, ACGG scanned all of its Gunmaker editions and sells the archive on a DVD. Each magazine is in a .pdf format, has full OCR text and the entire set is easily searchable using Adobe Acrobat Reader.

This is an invaluable resource for gunmakers looking for advice, tips, how-to's, etc. and is an incredible compilation of information from many gifted gunmakers for over 35 years.

Thanks Dennis. I have a rifle to finish some minor work then post pics about that I think you would enjoy, a JJ Reeb built 98 in the post WWI Suhl style. I have had two rifles by JJ Reeb and one by his son JJ JR through my shop in all the time I have been in business. All three left me deeply impressed. Pics next week.
Steve

Full disclosure time... and a response to the B.S. posted by Steven, B. Dudley, and BrentD...

I have had disagreements with B. Dudley and BrentD in the main Double shotgun forum in the past. I am never shocked when these two take a swipe at me. What would be a shock would be if they could just man-up and really say why they hate me so much. Mr. Dudley's grudge stems from his incessant whining and complaining that 2nd Amendment Rights topics have no place here in a shotgun forum. I publicly disagreed with him on many occasions, and once countered by stating that his own personal advertising of his gunsmithing services in the main Double Shotgun forum was just as inappropriate. He responded by having a hissy-fit and deleting his self promoting posts, and vowing to never return. Unfortunately, he could not keep his word, and returned. He has had a hard-on about it ever since. While I can appreciate his knowledge of Parker shotguns and other things such as the superiority of a pattern maker vise versus a machinist vise for gun stocks, I have trouble respecting his inability to let go of his grudge over our continued disagreement over gun rights discussions. And wouldn't you know it... off-topic political posts are perfectly OK when he does it. Here is Dudley slamming Dick's for their decision to stop selling AR-15's after the Parkland Fla. school shooting:



It looks like this human underwear stain is a bit of a hypocrite as well.


My prolonged feud with BrentD stems from our disagreements about lead ammunition bans, and other environmental topics. We had several strong disagreements on the subject in several Threads on lead ammo bans. It reached a head in the January 2017 "Lead and Condor Deaths" thread when Brent was supporting much of the obvious junk science that has led to lead ammunition bans. I happen to consider most of this a back-door approach to gun restrictions by making the cost of shooting and hunting prohibitively expensive. Brent vowed to IGNORE my posts back then, when he couldn't explain why several of the junk science papers he was clinging to had wildly differing numbers for what constituted lethal doses of lead in waterfowl and eagles. Brent is unable to admit that he may be wrong about anything. But unfortunately, he isn't able to keep his word about IGNORING me either. He IGNORES me like an angry woman.

Of course, I've taken the time to post a few quotes relating to my disagreements with rocky mtn bill, stemming mainly from his support for anti-gun politicians and Liberal Left dogma. But some people would rather go with their preconceived notions rather than accepting the truth. I really don't care if people like that like me or not. In fact, I'd prefer that they show they don't like me. I really don't care if they think Dave should banish me either. I happen to feel Dave should banish guys who support anti-gunners, guys who think discussions on the 2nd Amendment have no place here, and guys who support lead ammunition bans. Unfortunately, I don't get to have it my way, so I have to deal with idiots too. I happen to think their kind drive people away from here, and I know of a number who left this forum because of them. I'm not at all worried about people using the IGNORE function, because these guys continually show me they can't do it.

I have no quarrel with this thread topic other than the fact that it is nothing more than Steven's annual free advertising for his classes. It should be in the For Sale section, and he should compensate Dave accordingly. Steven felt justified in confronting me over something he disagreed with in his recent defense of rocky mtn bill, but now he's having a hissy-fit over me giving him a dose of his own medicine. There is certainly next to nothing in the way of useful information on stock making here, except for Dennis Daigger's tip about the CD available from the ACGG. I'm pretty sure this isn't the first time anyone here has seen photos of a bench horse supporting the end of a gunstock.

The ACGG DVD collection of past Gunmaker's is really quite impressive. Not only the plethora of tips and gunsmithing info, but much about the history of the Guild as it transpired.

An interesting trip down memory lane for me~~~

How's that Ignore feature working for ya? It makes me smile~~~kinda like raising my middle finger every time I see it with my favorite user... !***you are ignoring this user***!
Steven

yup

Yup!

Simply fascinating how people who claim to IGNORE you still read your posts and respond! Right Steven?

Keith,
Perhaps you should check with Dave first to see what he thinks before shitting on a thread? Plus I did see that Steven donated to this forum, but I didn’t see your name?

Always nice to see how others accomplish the same tasks.

I just got this PM (Personal Message) from rocky mtn bill telling me how happy he was that I posted those QUOTES from him earlier. Apparently, Billy is very happy that his contribution to this website is his Liberal Left dogma, and his support for anti-gunners and restrictions on our 2nd Amendment Rights.

It's nice to know that someone appreciates my posting in Stevens off-topic free advertising thread:



And here is my reply to Billy:



I want Steven to understand that my promise to Billy that the days of his attacking me in the Double Shotgun forum, and then thinking he can retreat here to the Custom Rifle forum are over, applies to him as well. The people who do not wish to see me responding to attacks from Billy or Steven need to speak to them.

Me too Aaron, me too.

This spat was amusing, but time to move on.....

I found the whole discourse hilarious, looking at it as a spectator. I'm sure it does little to help the site, but it is funny.

Yep!