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Posted By: 49NORTH Gibbs Farquharson - 10/23/17 06:03 PM
I have recently acquired George Gibbs single shot falling block rifle, right hand side marked Farquarson patent 41 , right hand marked George Gibbs Bristol, barrel marked Metfords patent M 18 with the Corn St address, there is no caliber marked anywhere, I was told it is .461 Gibbs #1 ,I would like to here from someone that knows and shoots these, as my goal is to let this gun hunt again.
Posted By: bonny Re: Gibbs Farquharson - 10/23/17 08:02 PM
I'd love to see some pictures of that Gibbs if its possible 49NORTH.
Posted By: skeettx Re: Gibbs Farquharson - 10/23/17 09:27 PM
https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/24227/lot/368/
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/britishm...7a7dafc#p123746
Posted By: 49NORTH Re: Gibbs Farquharson - 10/23/17 09:31 PM
Sorry , post should be left side marked George Gibbs , Bonny, PM sent , gun is plain jane, no embelishments, Skeet , my gun found in Canada
Posted By: craigd Re: Gibbs Farquharson - 10/23/17 10:01 PM
Only curious, have you come up with a rear sight idea for hunting purposes. It truly looks set up as a long range match rifle. Very nice rifle, congrats. I'd think slug the bore, take a chamber cast, and decide what to do from there.
Posted By: Vall Re: Gibbs Farquharson - 10/24/17 12:51 AM
Have you removed the forearm wood and looked underside of the barrel for caliber markings? That's where I found them on this one:



Posted By: 49NORTH Re: Gibbs Farquharson - 10/24/17 02:10 PM
Vall , WOW , what a beauty, mine must be a poor cousin, there is no markings under the forearm.
I would email someone some pictures to post, if they could put them up, I still can't figure out how.
Posted By: Remington40x Re: Gibbs Farquharson - 10/24/17 02:41 PM
Vall:

Gorgeous restock. Do you know who did the work?

Rem
Posted By: Vall Re: Gibbs Farquharson - 10/24/17 02:48 PM
Originally Posted By: Remington40x
Vall:

Gorgeous restock. Do you know who did the work?

Rem


I know that Guild engraver Robert Evans did the engraving and restoration. But George Komandine did the rust bluing, and unsure who did the stock work?
Posted By: eightbore Re: Gibbs Farquharson - 10/24/17 08:40 PM
All of us oldtimers should reread John Amber's Gun Digest article about his .461 F-Gun. I can't remember the issue of the GD, but it might have been 1959.
Posted By: SKB Re: Gibbs Farquharson - 10/24/17 08:55 PM
John had more than one .461 Gibbs Farq, one that originated in Japan and another. The second one is in my sights........
Posted By: Huvius Re: Gibbs Farquharson - 11/05/17 03:57 PM
Originally Posted By: craigd
Only curious, have you come up with a rear sight idea for hunting purposes. It truly looks set up as a long range match rifle. Very nice rifle, congrats. I'd think slug the bore, take a chamber cast, and decide what to do from there.


I'm not thinking that is the rifle in question.
His rifle must be a very early style action with an action number that low.
Pictures from the OP would clear it all up.

I can maybe help you out a bit, having a 461 Gibbs myself.
Your rifle, having Metford rifling, will probably have a .461" bore and grooves almost .469-.470".
Most Gibbs 461s are tight chambered, meaning that the biggest bullet that fits a fired case will be at bore size. This makes working up a NfB load very challenging but full black and duplex loads do the trick.
Paper patched bullets can be made by sizing back .458s to around .453 and patching up to .461" if indeed you have such a chamber. That at least will get you started shooting without laying out for a new mold.
Brass can be bought from Bertram in Australia but can also be made from 500/450 No.1 or if headspaced off of the shoulder, any 500, 500/450 or 470 Nitro Express brass.
Looking forward to seeing your rifle!
Posted By: craigd Re: Gibbs Farquharson - 11/05/17 06:20 PM
Thanks Huvius. I figured out later that it was my fault for thinking that the rifle in the link was the one discussed here. Interesting comments that you have shared about the barrel and chamber. Thanks.
Posted By: 49NORTH Re: Gibbs Farquharson - 11/06/17 03:37 PM
Huvius, Thanks for the info, I will probably need some help once I collect all the necessary components. I have contacted Mark Crudgington at Gibbs, he was very accommodating and provided great information. He said " it is the 41st Gibbs Farquhasson made, it is of the earliest type and conforms to most of the original patent drawings, it would have been built circa 1873-74" He went on to say that if it is stamped 47 or 48 by the barrel proof marks it will be .461 Gibbs #1. It is stamped 48.
The barrel is 25 1/4 inches long and it has two express style rear sights, front one is fixed and marked 100 the second is flip up marked 200.
Posted By: 49NORTH Re: Gibbs Farquharson - 11/16/17 05:33 PM
Just got Jonathan Kirton revised edition book, page 118 fig 92, is the rifle.
Posted By: Huvius Re: Gibbs Farquharson - 11/20/17 08:11 PM
Wow! That is an early one!
Would like to see some more pictures of it when you get the time.
My bet is that it will be tight chambered and a cast will show virtually no throat in the chamber. The lands running right up to the case mouth.
Posted By: 49NORTH Re: Gibbs Farquharson - 11/21/17 04:31 AM
I did a chamber cast on the weekend , the lands start about 1/8 inch in front of the case mouth, the bore is .466 on the lands and .468 to the grooves. I have never paper patched before so I am doing as much research as I can,currently I am thinking a .461 pure lead cast bullet with 2 wraps of 9lb 100% cotton paper,then resize to .468 on a 360grn bullet should be what I want.
Anyone have any thoughts or suggestions?
I should have pictures hopefully up by this weekend.
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: Gibbs Farquharson - 11/21/17 10:13 AM
I would be more that happy to help with paper patching. I do a heck of a lot of it for both hunting and competitive target shooting. It is a comparatively easy way to shoot, but the best approach dependents on your ultimate goals.

Are you interested in shooting only smokeless? If so, then the bullet size you will find best is going to be groove diameter or groove diameter plus 1 thousandth. You will seat the bullet much like you would any grease groove bullet or copper coated bullet. Crimping is best if fairly light. You may be able to get away without crimping at all, if you can get the neck size of the brass just right to grip the bullet sufficiently. Belling the case mouth, if possible, will help a lot. If you do need to crimp, a taper crimp or lightly touching it up with a neck sizing die or a Full Length sizing die may be all you need to do.

If you would consider shooting black - this is where paper patching can work best. In MOST cases, the bullets are patched (and sized if necessary) to be Land Diameter. Upon ignition, they will expand into the rifling - even if made of very hard lead:tin alloy. A combination of wads and bullet lube are usually used. I can give you a run down on that, if you wish.

Bullets can be pure lead or as hard as at least 16:1. Hardness depends on application of course. Flat noses are ideal, and I find heavier is better, if your twist rate can handle it.

Done right, this is what happens.

Posted By: Huvius Re: Gibbs Farquharson - 11/22/17 01:31 PM
I’m a bit confused about the .466” bore with a .468” groove.
That’s only .001” of rifling depth.
Brent’s point about whether you want to shoot black or smokeless will get you on the right track so think of that first.

If you want to use black powder, I would suggest using a pin gauge to measure the bore. That is the easiest and most accurate way to do it.
By doing that, you know the exact size of the bullet that will chamber and the groove depth is of no consequence.
If you really do have a .466” bore, that means you can patch virtually any .458” bullet right up to that .466” with two wraps - rather convenient!
What did the case neck/mouth measure at?
Posted By: 49NORTH Re: Gibbs Farquharson - 11/22/17 09:41 PM


[img][img]https://i.imgur.com/TOc682E.jpg[/img][/img] [img][img]https://i.imgur.com/YQejcs5.jpg[/img][/img] [img][img]https://i.imgur.com/Am3rvx4.jpg[/img][/img]
Posted By: skeettx Re: Gibbs Farquharson - 11/22/17 11:10 PM
Please tell me more about the side hammer
Posted By: 49NORTH Re: Gibbs Farquharson - 11/23/17 02:47 AM
Not the way I want to post pictures, I will keep trying.

Skeettx, Kriton's book describes it better than I can but basically its more of a cocking lever that is connected to the internal hammer, and is used as a safety by engaging the other lever into the notch that locks it in place and doesn't allow the internal hammer to engage.

Brent, thanks I defiantly will need help, I am thinking black powder is the way to go. When I get more things figured out I will be back with questions.

Huvius, I checked the casting on the edge of the case mouth an it came in at .488.
Posted By: 49NORTH Re: Gibbs Farquharson - 11/23/17 07:46 PM


Posted By: Fudd Re: Gibbs Farquharson - 11/24/17 09:29 PM
Originally Posted By: 49NORTH
Just got Jonathan Kirton revised edition book, page 118 fig 92, is the rifle.


Now, there’s a name I hadn’t heard in years. I shot a few long range matches alongside him in the early eighties. Remember him using a great big lifeboat oar of a Farquharson, with black powder loads. He was a perfect gentleman when I ignorantly asked him if it was a Martini.

He wore ascots unironically, and I remember him as a true enthusiast with flawless manners.
Posted By: Poorhouse Re: Gibbs Farquharson - 12/01/17 03:59 PM
This is my .219 Zipper Gibbs showing a slightly different version of the action. Dietrich Apel remembered making the rifle in the 1950's, but I never thought to ask him if he knew the original configuration or whether he had started with just a bare action. #796 on top of receiver ring, and serial # 16,540, so a fairly late action.

Hope the photos work.....


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Posted By: SKB Re: Gibbs Farquharson - 12/01/17 04:04 PM
Poorhouse,
Your rifle was originally built as a match rifle. The lever on the side is the indicator.
Steve
Posted By: Remington40x Re: Gibbs Farquharson - 12/01/17 08:53 PM
A .219 Zipper Gibbs. Way cool. How does it shoot?
Posted By: Poorhouse Re: Gibbs Farquharson - 12/01/17 10:00 PM
I acquired the rifle from Maine in early 1970's and fired a few reloads. As I recall, it would easily shoot 1 1/2" groups at 100 yards. Has an old Nickel scope in claw-mounts. Right after I got the rifle, I was looking for someone competent to lighten the trigger pull. A friend told me about a "German guy" doing work out of his home in western NH. Turned out to be Dietrich (he was helping Ruger design their O/U shotgun). When he saw the rifle, his first comment was "I made this rifle!"
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: Gibbs Farquharson - 12/01/17 10:05 PM
That's pretty cool.
Posted By: MS64 Re: Gibbs Farquharson - 12/02/17 03:14 PM
When I was owner of this rifle I would build it back to original configurations ( Match rifle )
there are to many of these fine rifles that where "destroyed" to make something different.
Posted By: Poorhouse Re: Gibbs Farquharson - 12/02/17 04:20 PM
If I were much younger, I would be tempted. Maybe the next "custodian" will consider a recreation.
Posted By: 49NORTH Re: Gibbs Farquharson - 12/07/17 03:07 AM
Finally back at this, got a chance to slug the barrel, I couldn't find a pin gauge to use, the slug measures .468.When you look down the barrel the rifling is extremely shallow, it looks like just swirls down the barrel. There are definitely lands but not very pronounced. After more research I think a 540 grain paper patch cast bullet over over 70-90 grns Swiss #4, now I just need brass.
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: Gibbs Farquharson - 12/07/17 03:09 AM
How fast is the twist? I would guess that a 540 gr bullet will be too long for whatever the twist is. I'd want to double/triple check anyway. Is it Metford rifling? It looks swirly, but is not really that shallow, just rounded.
Posted By: 49NORTH Re: Gibbs Farquharson - 12/07/17 03:26 AM
Brent, I do believe its Metford, the barrel is marked Metford on top, I wouldn't know the twist or how to measure it, the rifling barely shows on a chamber that goes 3 inches into the barrel, they are defiantly there but not very pronounced. The original bullets for the were if I remember right were 360 grn hollow point, 540 grn for express load? and 570 for match, this is all I have found so far, so I thought I would start there.
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: Gibbs Farquharson - 12/07/17 03:37 AM
49N, I just fit a really tight patch to a jag in on a good cleaning rod. Then I put a piece of tape around the rod so that the tag end of the tape is straight up when the patch is engaged in the rifling near the chamber. I push it forward being careful to allow the rod to twist as the rifling wants to rotate it until the tape has done a full rotation. I measure the distance the rod has moved forward to get the twist rate. Easier to do than to explain. I bet the 540 is way too heavy for an express load. 400 or less would be my guess. That 360 hollow point sounds about right. But I'm guessing a bit.
Posted By: 49NORTH Re: Gibbs Farquharson - 12/07/17 04:20 AM
Brent, took me a couple of tries but, your method worked great, it worked out to be 1/2 turn in 20inches, 25 inch barrel, so then it would be 1 in 40.
Posted By: Bob Saathoff Re: Gibbs Farquharson - 12/07/17 06:44 PM
49North, If you slug the muzzle of your rifle, you will probably find that it is smaller at the muzzle than it is at the breech. I have a Metford barrel in #2 Musket that has a groove of .469" and bore of .455". At the muzzle, it is .450". Think of it as a long funnel. This is what Metford segmental rifling looks like. Is that what you have? Could it be a gain twist?

Posted By: Huvius Re: Gibbs Farquharson - 12/08/17 03:40 PM
49N, your rifle would have surely used a 480gr bullet and a charge of 85grs of powder. The 540/75 load was a target shooting type load in the No.1 cartridge that pretty much replicated the performance of the 577/450 MH. Your rifle being a sporter and not a MBL or match rifle, I would think the 480gr is it.
From my reading, the 360gr bullet was introduced well after your rifle was made.
That said, many of the later Gibbs sporters were sighted for both the 360gr and a 570gr bullet and shoot both well so don’t get hung up on your bullet’s weight too much to begin with. The Metford rifling must be pretty forgiving in respect to bullet weight variation.
Posted By: 49NORTH Re: Gibbs Farquharson - 12/08/17 03:46 PM
Bob, no mine does look more like conventional rifling, just really really shallow.I am pretty sure the entire bore is .468 and has 7 grooves and 7 lands, my first attempt at measuring the bore from my chamber - bore cast was wrong as I put my digital caliper on the cast and slowly rotated it to get the reading I now see that probably wouldn't work properly.
Posted By: 49NORTH Re: Gibbs Farquharson - 12/08/17 03:55 PM
You guys are great, I really appreciate your patience and help.
The one thing that keeps eluding me is bullet diameter, I just cant figure out what I need to start with.
I have 100% cotton 9 lb paper for patching,
I am proficient in casting and reloading.
And is there a commercial available mold that would be a good staring point?
Posted By: Huvius Re: Gibbs Farquharson - 12/08/17 04:41 PM
Here’s what I would do.
Fireform your brass and check to see if they blow out to what your chamber cast showed.
Then measure the inside diameter of your formed brass. That’s what you patch up to. Deduct .008” and that will get you to the biggest bare bullet diameter your chamber will allow.
Depending on your chamber throat and the ogive of your bullet, you may find that the bullet will need to be seated well into the case rather than way out to avoid pushing hard into the lands.
My guess is that a fire formed case will accommodate a .468” patched bullet so a slick of .460 will be about what you will need for a patched bullet that will slip snugly into your fired cases.
A bullet like this will work with black powder and will be appropriate for NfB loads as well.
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: Gibbs Farquharson - 12/08/17 04:55 PM
There are a number of different moulds depending on what you want to do and what diameter bullet you want to shoot.

Are you looking to shoot groove diameter or land diameter and for hunting or plinking only? or serious target work for that matter?
Posted By: 49NORTH Re: Gibbs Farquharson - 12/10/17 03:19 PM
Huvius, Thanks, I will wait til I get my brass.

BrentD, I would love to hunt with this rifle.
Posted By: DES/TSD Re: Gibbs Farquharson - 12/16/17 06:55 AM
Vall, if your gun was engraved by Bob Evans and George Komadina did the bluing...your gunstock was likely made by Al Lind of Lakewood, WA.

George did my bluing for 30 years before he retired. Al Lind is still a friend and mentor.

There are two other possibilities.... Darwin or Trez Hensley. This gun doesn't have Darwin's "touches" to my eye.
Posted By: DES/TSD Re: Gibbs Farquharson - 01/13/18 09:53 PM
Vall, I can now confirm your gun was made by Al Lind of Lakewood, WA. I handled two different gunstocks he made just last week. The shaping on the comb are identical to the stock in the picture.
Posted By: LRF Re: Gibbs Farquharson - 01/14/18 01:33 PM
Dennis,
I was glad to hear that Al Lind is doing fine. I knew him more in the past, when he was still flying for Northwest Airlines. He was friends with Don Allen, as was I. The 3D stock panto-graph that Al has is the first prototype one I built for Don A.

If you talk to Al Lind please tell him I say Hi, Lynn Fliger.
Vall, you have a really nice rifle done by some of the best artisans we have ever enjoyed.
Posted By: Vall Re: Gibbs Farquharson - 01/14/18 06:20 PM
Originally Posted By: DES/TSD
Vall, I can now confirm your gun was made by Al Lind of Lakewood, WA. I handled two different gunstocks he made just last week. The shaping on the comb are identical to the stock in the picture.


Thanks! Assume you meant Al Lind did the wood, not the whole build. I already knew Robert Evans did the engraving, and George Komandine did the bluing.
Posted By: DES/TSD Re: Gibbs Farquharson - 01/24/18 05:09 PM
Actually, Al may have done the metal work. He could have also had Ed LaPour or Bruce Farman help him. He has done it all three ways in past. I just do not know. In his younger years Al and Don may have done it together. All of this is possible. I just know Al did the wood work on this project. I talked to Bob Evans just this last week in Vegas. He is still working. George has retired and is hard to get a hold of. I talked to Al just yesterday and today....he says without looking he could not say he did not build the metalwork too. He is still full of fire.
Posted By: Vall Re: Gibbs Farquharson - 01/24/18 05:37 PM
Originally Posted By: DES/TSD
Actually, Al may have done the metal work. He could have also had Ed LaPour or Bruce Farman help him. He has done it all three ways in past. I just do not know. In his younger years Al and Don may have done it together. All of this is possible. I just know Al did the wood work on this project. I talked to Bob Evans just this last week in Vegas. He is still working. George has retired and is hard to get a hold of. I talked to Al just yesterday and today....he says without looking he could not say he did not build the metalwork too. He is still full of fire.


No, Bob Evans is a very good friend of mine, and he told me he did the metal prep prior to engraving and having George do the bluing. Bob actually built two identical guns, and the picture I posted was one of the pair.
George was doing some work after he retired, but only for a small number of customers. I have used George previously and would have loved to continue after he retired, but I rarely needed his service, so I wasn't able to use him later. After George's wife passed away, he finally quit completely. He's been playing with his old cars, and just keeping busy doing what he wants for himself.
Posted By: DES/TSD Re: Gibbs Farquharson - 02/21/18 10:00 PM
I know George. I am one of those blessed few. He has done my bluing for 30 years. Linda was a great lady. My 3 girls called him "Uncle George" because we were over there enough times while living in PDX.

I heard of a pair Bob did within the past 5 years.
Posted By: Vall Re: Gibbs Farquharson - 02/22/18 04:05 PM
Originally Posted By: DES/TSD
I know George. I am one of those blessed few. He has done my bluing for 30 years. Linda was a great lady. My 3 girls called him "Uncle George" because we were over there enough times while living in PDX.

I heard of a pair Bob did within the past 5 years.


Yes, Bob did two identical guns. I wont get into the reason he did two, but they didn't both go to the same owner. No offense to anyone, but George's rust bluing was the finest I've ever seen! I have found another that's extremely close, (maybe very close!) but I have to send it to Moore, Mt. to get it done.
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