Hello, my name is Steven Norton and I believe this might be a new and interesting forum to conduct research among other collectors. For a while now I have been researching the relationship between Adolph Neidner and the US Marine Corps.

Mr. Neidner mounted 150 Telescopic Sights on Marine Corps 1903 Springfield Rifles in May and June 1917, at the Philadelphia Depot of Supplies. It is believed he used the tapered block design that Dr. Mann had created a few years previous

The one area of interest that I am researching are these tapered blocks. Does anyone on here have a Neidner Converted 1903 rifle that predate his move to MI in 1920? I am mostly interested in rifles he converted prior to 1920, in his MA Garage, and especially around the 1917 time frame. I figure since this is the same time he did the conversion for the Marines, his commercial conversions would be very similar.

I suspect that his commercial conversions would be much more attainable, than the actual Marine rifles, which have been rebuilt/parts replaced, or been fabricated by humpers. And this would give a clearer picture of what his actual work really looked like.


Any and all help would be greatly appreciated in this.

While I have no information to assist in your research, I would like to welcome you to the forum. While it has been a bit slow around here of late, there are some very knowledgeable collectors who follow this forum that I am sure may have some useful information.

Welcome aboard,

John

As a retired USMC 2112MOS (Master Armorer) and a Senior NCO as well- I saw several of these when attending the USMC Armorer's School at Quantico, VA. I forgot that Neider moved to Michigan around 1920- wasn't he settled in Dowagiac, same as master stockmaker Tom Shellhamer? You might contact the USMC base at Quantico and see what their museum has on the WW1 era weapons used by "Der Teuful Hunden" against the Hun in WW1`- We received the "Uncommon Valor Was A Common Virtue" from Adm. Nimitz a few years later, and against the Japs, not the Krauts, as in WW1- Humpers, pogies, snuffies- all the 10%ers who retire after the 4 years as senior Pfc's. Semper Fi!!

Run With The Fox,
Adm.Nimitz's statement was about the Marines at Iwo Jima, where My father lost his younger brother( 4th Marine div.)when I was 21 days old. Even though I was in the Army, my family always had a special place in our hearts for Marines. Semper Fi from an old soldier.
Mike

Semper Fi Gentleman, and thank you both for your Service. I have a special appreciation with Iwo Jima as I imagine most Marines do. I always try to collect anything I can associate to the Island

Run with the Fox, when were you at PWS? I love talking to 2112's. I screwed up when I joined, I wanted to do Infantry and I just didn't know any better at 18. If I could have done anything in the Marines now, I would have been a 2112. I think that has to be one of the most interesting jobs in the Corps.

I talk all the time to a friend who was a 2112 in the mid 2000's and always pick any new 2112's brain when I run across one.

The Marine Corps doesn't change much and usually the same way you Gentlemen build rifles hasn't changed much over the years. So I've been able to piece together traits on the older snipers by interviewing 2112's.

Yes Neidner moved to Dowagiac in 1920. I've been trying to figure out this Winchester A-5 Mystery for a while now. I keep on pulling documents from Archive locations and find new info everytime. It seems to be almost 5 different time periods of the A-5 Telescopic sight in the Marines and that is what makes it even more confusing in the documents.

I've tried Quantico many times as I write articles on Marine rifles, but have always struck out there. It seems most of the documents have been moved to a archive location.

Outside the box thought. Leupold & Stevens are involved in an inter-service sniper styled event in Beaverton Oregon (their HQ)-I'll be a case of John Wayne crackers that some of the "dingers" out there for that event might be able to help-worth a shot anyway- and no "maggie's drawers" either.

This may be a long shot but there was a guy that corresponded with Michael Petrov on the www.jouster.com forum about
Niedner sniper rifles named Jim Tarleton, his handle on that
forum is "Marine A5 sniper rifle". Maybe he can help you.

The dozen or so 1903 Springfields that Niedner converted to .22 rim fire in Malden had those tapered Mann/Niedner scope blocks.

Perhaps the owner of one of those can help. Two have sold in recent years, one from Petrov's collection, one from mine.

Thanks Gentlemen for responding. I've talked to Tarleton many times, but I believe I'm in uncharted territory.

Terry, actually the blocks on those Niedner .22 rifles are what have caused my question. They are different than the ones you see on Marine rifles and even in vintage Marine pictures.

The tapered blocks on Marine rifles, that are credited to Niedner, have wings that spread out from the block and cover more area on the receiver. All the commercial Niedner rifles I have seen so far, do not have these wings. So the design is similar but different on Marine rifles.

It is a very long story, but I believe the ones with wings are made by the Marines post WWI. I'm basically trying to see if I can find one Niedner commercial rifle with those wings.

But here is a original Marine tapered block, compared to the ones on the .22 Niedner rifles that sold.




And here is a pic of the wings circled on the blocks. I do not see these wings on all the commercial rifles I have seen so far.

I should add, I have no idea how to spell his name correctly. Half the stuff out there spells it Neidner, the other spells it Niedner.

The FBI report is Neidner, and I've seen rifles even with it spelled both ways. So I don't know exactly for sure how it's spelled.

Ah yes, the joys of English spelling....!Que barbaridad! Add the facts that some of our German ancestors were illiterate when they got here and their names were transliterated into an English that was spelled differently (but often more phonetically) than it is now, and you got a mess.

My Palatine German forebears were named Koete, with an umlaut over the "o". They ended up "Cady," (a perfectly good IRISH surname)!

TR was right about spelling reform, as in so many things.

(Sorry for the OT rant, but as a former teacher of English as a second language, this post, which is otherwise fascinating, set me off.).

He spelled it Niedner

I'm big on Irish names, being a shanty Irish Mick meself on the maternal side of da family tree. Cady- not a County in Erin, like Cork- but yes indeed, Mick indeed. But beside my love of classical music, I also love Mississippi Deep Delta Blues and all its derivations. "She caught the Cady, and left me a ticket to ride"-- have it on my Jake and Elwood Blues Brother CD- Beluski on vocals, Danny Akroyd on the harp- "smokin!!

That would be "She caught the Katy ...". "The Katy" was the nickname for the M-K-T Railroad, the Missouri-Kansas-Texas Railroad, which formerly ran from St. Louis to Texas. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missouri%E2%80%93Kansas%E2%80%93Texas_Railroad

But you have great taste in music.

You are in uncharted territory, but I suspect Jim Tarleton knows the answer to this one. He is the most knowledgeable expert on Marine WWI A5 lore that I know of.

The answer is very simple. Niedner (note correct spelling) bases used on early commercial rifles often had wings. It varies as to time frame. When it came to military rifles, Niedner went wingless to avoid obscuring the serial number of the rifle, which irritated the military.

Good luck in your search.

The simple explanation is, again, the right one.

RWTF,

I was a rather senior 1st/LT in 1965 in Okinawa when I participated in my first division match as captain of the Hq Battalion Rifle Team. We finished second (thanks to a saved round), but I did well enough to be picked up for the Far Eastern Division Matches, where I won my first "Leg" on Distinguished. Unfortunately, Far East participation in the Marine Corps, Inter-Service and National Matches was cancelled that year and we all went to the big shooting match in Vietnam instead. Incidentally, Dave Willis was also a 1st/LT on that team, as was George Van Orden. https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2016/10/2...orge-van-orden/

I was on the All Reserve Team for a while after leaving active duty as a captain, but didn't make Distinguished until later, as captain of the Tennessee State High Power Team.

I still have a couple of rifles built by the MTU at Quantico, an M1 .308 conversion and a Model 70 with a laminated Dunlap stock, also in .308.

When the CMP introduced the Springfield Match, I used to fire it with a Springfield fitted with Marine Corps front and rear sights, using a P.J. O'Hare Micrometer Sight Adjuster marked "USMC".

Age and disability have ended my match shooting career, but I still cherish the memories and the support we got from MTU. Many thanks!

The USMCR Team at Camp Perry in 1969. I'm third from the left on the front row, with the glasses. Major Ken Erdman, for whom the Erdman Trophy is named, is third from the right on the rear row.

Very cool photo. The armory looks the same today, but I think the pine tree is gone. Do you recall a James Laughland from your shooting days?

John

(I'm pretty sure that's a Spruce tree ;>)

Sorry, the name doesn't ring a bell, but you have to remember that I'm 78 years old. The other day I locked myself out of my gun room because I couldn't remember the combination on the Mosler door. Luckily I had a copy of it in my safe deposit box. This is a combination I have been using for almost 40 years now. I can remember my Marine Corps enlisted serial number and my officer's serial number, however. 18798XX and O805XX.

He is about your age.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/tag/james-laughland/

Ken Erdman was still shooting when I began in the mid 80's along with Al Ewing, Nelson Shew, Sam Burkhalter and Boyd Goldsby among others. Thanks for posting, this will be my 31st year spending 2 weeks of my summer at Camp Perry.

Steve, sorry about the tree. I will try much harder to make sure my posts meet the high journalistic standards that you demand on this site.

John